HL Deb 04 February 1987 vol 484 cc196-9

2.57 p.m.

Lord Jacques

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their estimate of government expenditure for all purposes in each of the regions, and what is the amount per thousand of registered unemployed in each region.

The Secretary of State for Employment (Lord Young of Graffham)

My Lords, apart from expenditure which is the responsibility of the territorial departments, most public expenditure is planned on a national basis and it is not possible separately to identify expenditure in each of the regions. The percentage of the working population unemployed, by region, is published monthly in the Department of Employment Gazette.

Lord Jacques

My Lords, having regard to our rate of unemployment and the considerable disparity between the regions, is this not information which ought to be available for the guidance of both the Government and Parliament?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, a great deal has been said recently about the division between North and South. One of the popular figures that has been around is that 94 per cent. of job losses have been in the North. In that particular article and debate, the definition of "North" is far wider than would normally be used, because it includes Scotland, Wales, the North, the North-West, the West and the East Midlands, Yorkshire and Humberside; in other words, everything in Great Britain except the South-West, East Anglia and the South-East.

The relative population of those areas is 57 per cent. If we actually look at the rise in unemployment for those regions, it is 64 per cent. That does not suggest great disparity between the North and the South. Looking at the percentage of increase in self-employment by region, we find the greatest percentage increase is in Yorkshire and Humberside.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, will the noble Lord address himself to the question which my noble friend has just put, which did not deal with the North and the South? My noble friend simply asked whether it would not be possible to produce the required figures in respect of each of the regions. The noble Lord is very ingenious in producing figures out of the hat for all kinds of things. Can he not come down to the factual content that is the subject of the Question and do something about it?

Lord Young of Graffham

No, my Lords. I am extremely sorry if I occasionally upset noble Lords opposite by showing them what the true facts are rather than the fictions in which they believe. I should remind your Lordships' House that we are the United Kingdom and divisions of this sort do not help our future.

Lord Sefton of Garston

My Lords, is it not a fact that the amount of money that is spent on the proposed Channel tunnel is more than the whole of regional aid in one year?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, it is a fact that government are not spending any money on the Channel tunnel; it is spent by the private sector. That is a matter for the private sector and not for government.

Lord Sefton of Garston

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I have a letter from the Government, over his name, I believe, saying that £469 million will be spent by the Government arising from the operations of the Channel tunnel? Does he deny that?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, that is entirely another question and not to the point; but what I will confirm is that the amount of money that is spent is less than regional aid, which was the purport of the noble Lord's original question.

Lord Sefton of Garston

Look out, the Leader of the House is coming!

The Lord President of the Council (Viscount Whitelaw):

No he is not, my Lords. He will, but he has not yet.

Lord Sefton of Garston

My Lords, I am rather surprised that the noble Lord is not aware of what his department, or another government department, is telling Members of this House.

Lord Jacques

My Lords, I must remind the Minister—

Noble Lords

Question!

Lord Jacques

My Lords, may I remind the Minister that he has not answered my supplementary question? Will he have another look at it and please answer the supplementary question?

Lord Young of Graffham

No, my Lords, because in my original Answer I said that most public expenditure is planned on a national basis and it is not possible separately to identify expenditure in each of the regions. I do not believe that expenditure divided by regions actually helps the progress of the United Kingdom.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, is it not the case, however, that it is possible to identify expenditure in Wales and Scotland? Can the noble Lord give those figures?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, that is another question but I am happy to assure all in your Lordships' House that the Principality of Wales and Scotland are not regions of the United Kingdom; they are quite separate. We are talking about regions of England. I am happy to give figures which can show by regions the amount of money which is spent by the Manpower Services Commission. I shall place that information in the Library for those who are concerned. It will show that whereas £59 per head is spent by the Manpower Services Commission in the South-East, in Wales, which is of immediate concern, the figure is £161 per head; in Scotland it is £143 per head; and in the Northern region it is £179 per head. All regions with the exception of London have about double what is spent in the South-East.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, if we have this solid United Kingdom, how is it that the noble Lord is able to bring out those figures for the regions?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, the Question asks what is the Government's estimate of their expenditure for all purposes in each of the regions. I have a very quaint habit; I like to answer the Question.

Lord Glenamara

My Lords, does not my noble friend Lord Sefton have a very important point with regard to whether the resources being devoted to the Channel tunnel are public or private? The fact remains that vast national resources will be devoted to this project which will have a minimal permanent effect on our economy, whereas the older industrial areas are crying out for investment. Is this not a misuse of national resources?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, when I am told by the Treasury that fixed capital investment in the United Kingdom for the past four years each year broke the record and increased further I do not see that, because part of the private sector spends part of its money or intends to spend part of its money on the Channel tunnel, it is a matter of great moment to all in your Lordships' House. Surely the noble Lord is not suggesting that we have compulsory direction of all private sector investment.