HL Deb 02 February 1987 vol 484 cc5-8

2.47 p.m.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what were the levels of unemployment for the year ending 1978, 1979, 1980 and 1985.

The Secretary of State for Employment (Lord Young of Graffham)

My Lords, as the reply contains a statistical table, I shall, with permission, arrange for the full reply to be published in the Official Report. In December 1978, the seasonally adjusted level of adult unemployment in the United Kingdom was 1,166,600 and the corresponding estimate for December 1985 was 3,132,500. However, in December 1986, seasonally adjusted unemployment stood at 3,116,400 and is thus now lower than a year ago.

Following is the table referred to:

The seasonally adjusted levels of adult unemployed claimants in the United Kingdom in December of each of the years 1978, 1979, 1980 and 1985 were as follows:

Note: Estimates allow for discontinuities and are consistent with the current coverage of the claimant count.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply, which shows clearly that in the last six months under the previous Labour Government unemployment was falling. Would it not be worthwhile for the Government to conduct very exhaustive research into why there has suddenly been the most dramatic increase since the end of the war in unemployment in this country? As regards schemes that have been introduced and that might have some effect for about six months in reducing unemployment, is it not the case that the job training scheme was taken from the United States of America and really means that people who are unemployed will have to work for the dole? It will be related to supplementary benefits. However, if supplementary benefits are reduced, as they may be in April, will those on the job training scheme also have the money that they draw reduced?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, although the statistics will show that unemployment fell between 1978 and 1979, they will also show that it has fallen twice as far in the last five months. I hope that that trend will continue. I do not believe that there is any intention by the Government to introduce the type of system operating in the United States, to which the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, referred, known as Workfare. What we have is a job training scheme available to those out of work for more than six months who are able to take existing valid vocational certifications on benefit levels.

Baroness Seear

My Lords, will the Secretary of State agree that the figures show that under any government the unemployment figures tend to fall for the few months before an election?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, I wish that were so, but I did not notice that before the last election.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the figures he has given, supplemented by those he will no doubt circulate, show that under this Government unemployment has increased by at least two million despite the fact that the election campaign of 1979 was fought on the basis of Labour being the party of unemployment? Will the noble Lord supplement his information by indicating to the House just what the unemployment figure now would be had it been based on the same statistical basis as before, prior to the 18 adjustments downwards of the registered unemployed made under the auspices of this Government?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, I am very surprised at the moderation of the noble Lord's language—only 18 adjustments. I thought by now the mythology was that I was up to the low 20s. I have made one major change. But it may interest your Lordships to know that the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has itself revised the unemployment statistics. No doubt noble Lords opposite will claim that it is also in the process of fiddling the figures. It announced two weeks ago that it has adjusted the percentage of unemployment for the United Kingdom; for the United Kingdom it is 11.3 per cent.—that is precisely the percentage which we announced last month—while for Great Britain it is 11.1 per cent.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, does the Secretary of State agree that the press release from his department on 12th January showed, I think, that a further 16,000 people in the manufacturing sector had been made unemployed? Does he accept that the most disturbing continuing trend in all the unemployment figures is that employment in manufacturing industry continues to fall?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, the press notice on unemployment statistics which I released on the 15th January showed that the number of employees in manufacturing industry decreased by 14,000 in October. It went on to say that the rate of decline in manufacturing is considerably slower than it was in the period between 1980 and 1983. We have seen a decline of about 8,000 a month in manufacturing occupations over the past three years. It is important to remember that throughout the period between 1966 and 1976 we saw a decline of 10,000 a month. In almost every industrialised nation in the world we have seen a continuing decline in manufacturing employment and I suspect that we shall continue to see it until the end of the first quarter of the next century.

Lord Grimond

My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us whether the Prime Minister really said last week that there would be jobs for all? If so, does he agree with that and does it mean the end of unemployment? When does he think we shall reach that happy condition?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, the Prime Minister did not say it in that way. She said she was convinced that we were working towards a period in which full employment would again be possible. I would define that, as I believe we all would, as a period in which there would be as many vacancies as there are those seeking vacancies. I am quite sure that if we can continue to follow the Government's present economic policies, we shall in the fullness of time arrive at that situation.

Lord Mellish

My Lords, recognising that the figures of unemployment are very disturbing, particularly for those who are out of work and who have been so for months if not years, can the noble Lord say, in order to take a more realistic approach, what are the figures for the same years of those who are actually working?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, in the United Kingdom of all adults of employable age we give employment to 65 per cent., which compares with a European average of 58 per cent. Our nearest competitors are France and Germany, with 59 per cent. and 60 per cent. In fact we give more worthwhile employment to all our citizens than any other large country in Europe.

Baroness Seear

My Lords, is part-time employment reckoned as a single unit or as a part of a unit?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, I have not found any way of dividing up a human being. We are talking about people, and 65 per cent. of all adults of employable age means individual people.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, does the Minister accept that unemployment is not merely a matter of statistics? The figures published include a would-be breadwinner who has been unemployed for a few years, who has a number of children, some of them at school, and whose burden of debt is increasing to an alarming degree. Is he prepared to consider that a lot of people believe that the sudden upsurge of activity by the Government is actuated and engendered by the fact that the political atmosphere is becoming redolent with the prospects of a general election rather than by deep concern for the misery of the unemployed which has wrecked and racked this country over the past four years?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, I wish to assure the noble Lord that a general election is inevitable every five years. Whatever any government do at any time is done with the prospect of an election in the future. Last week when I announced programmes for the job training scheme and the changes that we are making to Restart and other programmes, I was referring to the early 1990s—a period during which I anticipate that this Government will have control of our economic fortunes.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his statement a short while back relating to employment in this country and in other countries will be subject to further scrutiny?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, I am delighted to think that my statements will be subject to scrutiny. However, I should be very much happier if the noble Lord could read the Statement, follow what is said and come to believe it, because I am sure that would tend to put him right.

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he could give us one figure he has not yet ventured? How many pople in this country are unemployed at present?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, the figure which I gave was 3,116,400. That is the number of people who are unemployed at the present time. Let me say in passing that I am delighted that we should have had a Question on unemployment. The last time we had one was on 16th July 1986. I remember this time last year that there were two or three a week. I wonder what has happened over the past six months to diminish the ardour for asking Questions about unemployment.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the fact that there has not been a plethora of Questions has not diminished our deep concern about the unemployment position in this country? Is he further aware that although the number employed in manufacturing industry in Western countries generally has declined, the decline in this country has been far greater? Will he confirm that first of all, and will he also say what policies the Government have to deal with the situation, or have they decided that this country is no longer to be a competitive manufacturing country?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, it is only as a result of the policies followed by this Government that at long last this country is becoming competitive; at long last this country is winning export orders; at long last this country is producing goods of good quality and design and at economic prices. There is no question but that we were grossly overmanned in 1979. We had a nationalised industry sector that was grossly overmanned and inefficient. Today we have lean and efficient manufacturing industries, with a healthy and prosperous future ahead of them.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the main cause of this country having heavier unemployment than others was that strange but not uncommon avian occurrence—featherbedding coming home to roost?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, I defer to the noble Viscount.