HL Deb 15 December 1987 vol 491 cc603-4

3.4 p.m.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether in view of recent statements made on security and intelligence matters they will amplify Lord Glenarthur's Answer of 29th October 1987 (H.L. Deb. col. 773).

The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne)

No, my Lords, I am afraid not.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the noble Lord capable, as I am sure he is, of entertaining the possibility that the Government may be mistaken in this matter? Is it not the case that they are bringing themselves into world-wide derision by their attempts to shove the cat back into the sack in various parts of the world? Would it not be much better if they were to take a new line on this and decide that where matters are not of vital national interest they may be discussed? Is it not the case that the Government's line on this matter is now so rigid that it is impossible to ask reasonable and ordinary questions which ought to be asked, and answered?

Lord Trefgarne

No, my Lords, I am afraid that public discussion of these matters is not conducive to national security.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, I accept the general principle enunciated by the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, but does the noble Lord, the Minister not agree that if four, or any number of, employees of Cable and Wireless or GCHQ were killed by terrorists that should be a matter for the public domain?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot add to the answers I have already given.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, I must press the noble Lord on this. Are there occasions then if employees of Her Majesty's Government, or indeed of companies like Cable and Wireless, are killed when these are matters which must not be made public? Is that what the noble Lord is saying? If so, it is an extremely serious admission.

Lord Trefgarne

No, my Lords, that is not what I said. What I said, and what my noble friend said on an earlier occasion, is that matters relating to national security are not for the public domain.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, I really must ask the noble Lord this question. Is he and is the House aware that I accept the principle which he has enunciated? I understand it completely. But where British citizens are killed abroad is that not a matter which should he made public?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the noble Lord accepted the principle that these matters are not in general for public discussion and then sought to ask me a question which related to those matters. I regret that I cannot help him further.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, will the noble Lord take on board the point that this matter was first stated publicly by a supporter of the Government in another place? In these circumstances would it not be right for the Government to take account of the fact that it is already in the public domain in the sense that it has been placed there by a supporter of the Government in another place? Therefore it would surely render it possible, and even desirable, that the Government should tackle the matter and answer it.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the book to which the noble Lord refers was indeed written by a Member of another place but was not an official publication of any sort.