HL Deb 08 December 1987 vol 491 cc68-70

3.3 p.m.

Lord Winstanley

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In asking my Question, perhaps I may claim the indulgence of the House and apologise most humbly for having very stupidly and inexcusably overlooked the fact that my Question, which I ask every two years, has this time been overtaken by events, the nature of which the Minister has very kindly undertaken to explain when he answers my Question in its proper form. I am most grateful to him for so doing.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will implement Section 19 of the Weights and Measures Act 1979, in order to protect beer drinkers from the service of short measure.

Lord Beaverbrook

My Lords, there are no plans at present to implement Section 43 of the Weights and Measures Act 1985, which was formerly Section 19 of the 1979 Act. However, the Department of Trade and Industry will shortly be issuing revised regulations for beer glasses, and at the same time the Brewers' Society is to publish guidelines on good dispensing practice.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

What on earth does that mean, my Lords?

Lord Winstanley

My Lords, I am most grateful for that Answer. Having asked the same Question so many times, I expected the same Answer. This time I was given a better Answer and I am most grateful to the Minister for what he said about the glasses. Is the Minister aware that the trading standards officers are at present embarking on a nation-wide survey to discover the precise extent by which beer drinkers are defrauded through short measure? The present estimate is that this amounts to about £½ million a year. If that is the case, is it not really time that something was done?

Lord Denham

Order.

Lord Winstanley

Must we go on, my Lords, serving beer by the so-called brimful measure whereby it either pours over the side or is sold in short measure?

Lord Beaverbrook

My Lords, there have been a number of trading standards surveys. These surveys assume that the froth is not part of the drink, whereas in many parts of the country the custom is that it is part of the drink. This is fully recognised by the enforcement authorities in applying the law in their areas.

The Earl of Lauderdale

My Lords, has the attention of the Government also been drawn to the concern of whisky drinkers? My experience is that the whisky measure always is too short.

Lord Beaverbrook

My Lords, I think I would rather stick to beer today.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, are the implications of this Question that the publicans have joined the temperance movement?

Lord Beaverbrook

I do not think so, my Lords.

Lord Mowbray and Stourton

My Lords, are the implications that the Liberal Party is now part of the publicans?

Lord Beaverbrook

I would not know, my Lords.

Lord Dunleath

My Lords, can the noble Lord very kindly state whether or not it is yet obligatory for the original gravity of beer to be stated at point of sale? Does he not agree that the public is in greater danger of being deceived by weak measure than by short measure?

Lord Beaverbrook

My Lords, I cannot answer the noble Lord's precise question but I shall look into it and let him know.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, will the Minister give us the Government's definition of good dispensing practice?

Lord Beaverbrook

My Lords, the expression "good dispensing practice" is set out in the guidelines issued by the Brewers' Society. They are an initiative by the trade to promote the use of glasses that will more readily accommodate local preferences for the way in which beer is served. In particular, the guidelines advise bar staff on the best use of the various kinds of glasses suitable for dispensing beer.

Lord Williams of Elvel

My Lords, should we not now call "Time gentlemen, please" on this Question?

Lord Beaverbrook

I agree, my Lords.

Lord Winstanley

My Lords, if the Government are not to be moved by the pleas of beer drinkers, will they listen to those of the Customs and Excise officers, who believe that as duty is collected from customers on non-existent beer and is not subsequently paid to the revenue it is the Customs and Excise department that is being defrauded as well as beer drinkers?

Lord Beaverbrook

I would not agree my Lords. Because of the way that beer duty is charged, there is no loss to the Exchequer. Duty is charged on the quantity and original gravity at the production stage and is not a tax on consumption. It is effectively a tax on beer produced, not on beer sold.