§ 2.54 p.m.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will publish the memorandum of understanding governing the new phased-array radar system at Fylingdales.
§ The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne)My Lords a copy of the memorandum of understanding on the modernisation of the ballistic missile early warning system at RAF Fylingdales has been placed in the Library of the House.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, is the Minister aware that when a similar question was asked of his noble friend Lord Glenarthur a few weeks ago there was obviously a misunderstanding? The noble Lord very courteously sent me a memorandum of understanding between the two countries. This was not the memorandum which I asked the Government whether they intended to publish.
In another place the Government stated that the memorandum of understanding governing—and that is the operative word—the operation of the Fylingdales radar station was under consideration as to whether it could be published. Will the memorandum of operations for the Fylingdales station be published? Has it been decided whether it should be published? It is not the memorandum that was sent to me.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I am sorry that there has been some misunderstanding about the document which the noble Lord had in mind. As far as I know there is no further memorandum of understanding to be published on this matter.
§ Lord Irving of DartfordMy Lords, will the noble Lord say whether in the view of the British Government the Fylingdales phased-array radar system breaches the ABM Treaty of 1972? Can he say what role it will have in the strategic defence initiative and whether the matter is likely to be discussed at the summit meeting or between Mrs. Thatcher and Mr. Gorbachev?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the United Kingdom is not a signatory to the treaty to which the noble Lord refers. We are entirely satisfied that the modernisation programme for this installation now in prospect is in accordance with the obligations of the United States under that treaty.
§ Lord IronsideMy Lords, does my noble friend agree that the early warning and the intelligence-gathering role of the Fylingdales station within the BMEWS world-wide network is absolutely vital to the NATO alliance? Can he confirm that the United Kingdom contractors are still very strongly placed to 1056 secure manufacture and assembly contracts for the array plates from the United States' prime contractor? Here I have an interest to declare.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the facility at RAF Fylingdales is very important. It is also the case that there will be a number of opportunities for British contractors in the modernisation programme.
§ Lord MellishMy Lords, is the Minister aware that some of us regard this question as asking for information which is very sensitive and which may well be classified? If it is not why not?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the noble Lord may be assured that I have revealed nothing to the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, which he is not authorised to receive.
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, will my noble friend explain why the admission by Mr. Gorbachev that the Soviet Union is undertaking its own anti-ballistic missile work has been heralded as such good news? We have known for seven years or more that they have been deploying 20,000 scientists on their own SDI programme. Why is this considered new? I can understand why it is admitted—because we found it out and we have known about it for so long.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, some noble Lords opposite have been claiming in recent years that the United States SDI programme, in which we are playing a part, is entirely without purpose because the Russians are not embarked on this kind of work. We have constantly said that that is not the case and now Mr. Gorbachev has confirmed that.
§ Lord Irving of DartfordMy Lords, will the noble Lord bear in mind that the Russians disagree with both the Americans and ourselves on this? It is a matter of outstanding disagreement. Will it be raised at the summit or at the meeting between Mrs. Thatcher and Mr. Gorbachev?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the noble Lord says that the Russians disagree with us. They would, wouldn't they?
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, can the noble Lord look once again at the possibility of publishing whatever Anglo-American agreements concerning the construction and operation of Fylingdales remain unpublished? Is it not an indisputable fact that Fylingdales and the Thule station in Greenland are a long-standing bone of contention between the United States and the Soviet Union? The way in which they are used is a bone of contention. Is it not perfectly fair that Parliament and the people of this country should take quite a detailed interest in what the reconstructed station is really for?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the noble Lord says that these stations have been a bone of contention between ourselves and the Soviet Union—
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, I said between the United States and the Soviet Union.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I am sorry. I meant to say between the United States and the Soviet Union. There are questions still to be answered about the station at Krasnoyarsk as well.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, the noble Lord said that although the British Government are not a member of the ABM treaty organisation he is satisfied that the Fylingdales station does not breach the treaty. Article 6b of the ABM Treaty:
commits each party 'not to deploy in the future radars for early warning or strategic ballistic missile attack except at locations along the periphery of its national territory and oriented outward'".Both Thule and Fylingdales lie outside the national territory of the United States. Does the noble Lord not agree that when it is clearly stated by the Government that the existing installations at Fylingdales will continue to operate alongside the new installation, this proves that it is not a modernisation? Does the noble Lord not accept that the breach of the ABM Treaty is undermining the attempts at the reduction of nuclear weapons now in progress in the United States?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I reject the proposition put forward by the noble Lord. The fact is that this is an existing facility at Fylingdales which is being modernised. In our view this modernisation is fully in accordance with US obligations under the ABM Treaty.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, the noble Lord is right in stating that the Soviet station at Krasnoyarsk is also a hone of contention between the two super powers. Are the Government considering inviting a Soviet delegation to visit Fylingdales as the Soviet Union recently invited an American Congressional delegation to visit Krasnoyarsk?
§ Lord TrefgarneNo, my Lords.