HL Deb 29 April 1987 vol 486 cc1475-8

2.48 p.m.

Lord Kirkwood

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, if ancillary costs over which the research councils have no control rise significantly, the science budget will be correspondingly increased to protect the level of basic and strategic research.

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, the Government review the the science budget each year in the course of the public expenditure survey and have shown themselves ready to provide extra resources when urgent needs are identified. But there can be no automatic supplementation to meet rising costs.

Lord Kirkwood

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that somewhat short reply. I am sure that the whole scientific community welcomes the Government's action in providing further cash for research. But would the noble Baroness not agree that adventitious events such as the £4 million salary increase award to the scientific Civil Service and the change of exchange rate, which caused an additional burden on the science budget and a further contribution towards European research, cannot promote good management of the remaining budget for UK civil research?

Baroness Hooper

No, my Lords. In fact, the United Kingdom Government spend more on university and research council research as a proportion of gross domestic product than some of our competitors, notably Japan and the United States of America. But industry in those countries spends more on research than does industry in the United Kingdom.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, would the noble Baroness tell us how many scientists have departed this country in the last year? Also, would she not try to agree that the reason they depart is not their personal incomes, but the fact that programmes in which they are vitally interested are being cut? Is it not the case that without an automatic rise these programmes must be cut?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, I shall try my best to answer that question as positively as possible. In fact, academics will be getting a very substantial pay increase in terms of the 24 per cent. which is to be phased over the period from 1st December 1986 to 1st March 1988. Employers will also have discretion to pay more to the best people. So our policy of selectivity and concentration will mean better facilities for outstanding groups who are most at risk of being drawn overseas.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, would the noble Baroness answer the question on the numbers who have left this country?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, I regret I am not able to do that without notice, but I shall endeavour to find out and let the noble Lord know.

Lord Sherfield

My Lords, I understand that the deficit on international subscriptions in 1986 was £20 million. I understand, too, that the Government rightly insist on good and indeed better management of science. Would the Minister not agree that a deficit of this kind makes wise and good management extremely difficult, and that while the present system may make good Treasury practice it does not make very good sense?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, we do indeed recognise the many commitments involved for people running budgets in this particular field. But I should like to emphasise that the Government are not reducing, and have not reduced, the science budget in any way. In fact, the expenditure plans announced last November allowed for a cash increase of £39 million or 6.3 per cent. between 1986–87 and 1987–88. Since then, the Government have also agreed to provide an additional £17.5 million over the next three years for AIDS research as well as the £15 million announced on 1st April this year. The science budget for 1987–88 now stands at a total of £676 million, an increase of 14 per cent. in real terms since 1979–80. We hope and expect that the institutions involved will be able to manage better as a result.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, the noble Baroness referred in a previous answer to the increase in academic salaries. I am sure that that is most welcome. However, does she not agree that the full amount of the increase in the science budget which was announced on 1st April of this year, with the exception of the special amount for AIDS, will be taken up by the increase in salaries, leaving no room at all for additional projects? If I am wrong about that, will the noble Baroness tell us how much money will actually be available for new research projects over and above the additional costs of salaries?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, the £15 million which was announced on 1st April is intended to be additional money to buy more first-class science highly selectively. That is the Government's policy.

Lord Nugent of Guildford

My Lords, I recognise that the Government have made further moneys available and are producing a significant proportion of what is required, but will my noble friend consider, and ask her right honourable friend in another place to consider, whether it is possible to increase the fiscal incentives to the many firms that make no contribution whatsoever to the research side so that they may be more inclined to come up to the level of the firms in this country that are very generous on the research side?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, I shall pass my noble friend's comments to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. That matter and the whole subject of scientific research is kept under constant review by the department.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, the noble Baroness will recognise that she gave no answer to my previous question. Perhaps I may put it more precisely. What increase is expected in the proportion of research projects which are alpha-rated by the research councils as a result of increases in the science budget?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, the Government believe that we must get the best value from the substantial funds which are available. I have already referred to the fact that the funds for 1987–88 stand at a total of £676 million. It is the hope of the Government that those funds will be concentrated on outstanding research groups and will provide more selectivity in the areas which we support. The important matters in this area are that there should be a great deal of competition for the resources available and that there should be new ideas and new initiatives. The challenge is to concentrate on getting the best possible results.

Lord Bonham-Carter

My Lords, in the light of the answer which the noble Baroness has given us and in the light of the competition for resources which she mentioned, does she recognise that the most important matters are human resources and human abilities? Those are the worrying matters. Although she cannot give the figures, it is alleged in the United States of America that the greatest haemorrhage of scientific workers of the first order leaving Europe, and particularly this country, for America since the Nazis were in power in Germany has occurred in the last few years.

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, there is always a drain; sometimes the drain goes in both directions. However, we understand that it is not significant. It is most important in areas of advanced research on any subject that there should be international liaison. That is all part of it.

Lord Bonham-Carter

My Lords, is the noble Baroness denying that there has been a haemorrhage of leading scientists from this country to the United States of America in the last two years? If she is really saying that, the Government are living in Cloud-cuckoo-land.

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, we are prepared to acknowledge, and I have already acknowledged, that some of our scientists have moved. Nevertheless, we have a number of first-rate, top-class people who still operate in this country and who are producing very sound and successful results.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, perhaps the noble Baroness can then tell us what benefits flow back to this country from the United States from the drain of scientific workers.

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, the noble Lord, speaking from the Benches from which he speaks, will recognise the importance of international co-operation and the movement of peoples. I think that the results must be self-evident.

The Earl of Bessborough

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that there is a benefit to this country through the various grants, such as the Fulbright scheme and other grants, under which a great many Americans come to this country?

Baroness Hooper

Yes indeed, my Lords. I said previously that there is a two-way flow.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that in so far as there is an appalling gap between British high technology and the technology of Japan and the United States, anything that might close that gap ought to be welcomed by Her Majesty's Government?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, I must emphasise that the most recent study, which was based on facts and figures then available and which goes back to 1982, showed that the output and influence of British science was still ahead of that of all the other OECD countries except the United States.