§ 2.48 p.m.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what was their response to the report of Secretary of State Shultz on Soviet proposals for nuclear disarmament in Europe.
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)My Lords, we are currently considering our response in consultation with our NATO partners.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, will the noble Baroness give the Answer to the Question? What was the British Government's response at the time that Mr. Shultz met NATO governments following his visit to Moscow? Does the noble Baroness agree that the offer made by Mr. Gorbachev of the Soviet Union not only satisfied every condition that the West had laid down for removing nuclear armaments from Europe but went much further than NATO had previously requested?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that the visit to Moscow of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister confirmed to Mr. Gorbachev that we support the zero-zero option in Europe, though we should still prefer a global ban. That is conditional on agreement on vital details, including verification and short-range intermediate nuclear missiles. The main remaining areas of disagreement are over the Western right to match Soviet systems.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, the House has noted with great interest what the noble Baroness has said. Will she confirm that the proposals have been, and are being, discussed not only bilaterally but at WEU and in NATO itself? Will the noble Baroness be good enough to say when Her Majesty's Government think that a unified response can be expected? Can she also confirm that Her Majesty's Government's response will be a positive one?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I can confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, that, as he would expect, discussions are continuing among our NATO allies and partners. It is important that there should be cohesion in the West and that we should achieve the right answer. As I have already answered in part to the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, the Soviet proposals to extend the zero option further down the scale to shorter-range missiles of approximately 300 to 600 miles are being studied by NATO at present. It seems clear that NATO's security will continue to require land-based nuclear weapons in Europe as part of our response to the Soviet Union's superiority in chemical and conventional forces. There is no question of our negotiating these weapons away.
§ Lord GladwynMy Lords, would the Government not agree that if they should accept, in principle, the proposed East-West deal on intermediate nuclear weapons, the risk, as suggested by some, of ultimately putting Western Europe at the mercy of the Russians is quite unreal, always supposing that the American army remains in Europe and that the West retains sufficient protected nuclear capability to attack both the Russians armies, when and if they invade, and the Soviet Union itself?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I think from what the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, has said that the points he makes are in many respects similar to the point I was making in answer to the earlier questions. I would only add that we hope that agreement can be reached in this area of arms control in the near future. If so, it will be an historic achievement for the western governments and for our own people. But it must be an agreement which enhances our security. We therefore attach great importance to a number of conditions, including, of course, verification.
§ Lord MellishMy Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware that many of us—in fact, I am sure the whole House—will welcome the new efforts that have come from Mr. Gorbachev. We dream of the day when there will be no nuclear weapons of any kind anywhere in the world. But is it not a fact that there are two big problems facing Britain as a member of NATO? First, there is the whole question of the danger of short-range missiles. Unless these are completely and utterly eradicated there is no sensible meaning to "peace". Secondly, and most important, if one gets rid of all nuclear weapons, as we all pray will happen, one is left with a Russian superiority of something like three to one in conventional arms. What will be done about that?
§ Baroness YoungYes, my Lords. the noble Lord Lord Mellish, makes a very important point both about conventional weapons and, of course, about chemical weapons, in which the Soviet Union has a clear superiority. That is why I said in the course of my remarks that there must be agreements on these matters as well.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, given that we are talking about the removal of American and Russian weapons from the soil of Europe, will the Government take an early opportunity, possibly tomorrow at the WEU, to 1357 work out a way in which West European countries can take part in these negotiations which affect their future existence and thereafter can take part in whatever verification machinery is set up to ensure the carrying out of the agreements which we all hope will be reached?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, what is very important is that the cohesion of the alliance should be maintained throughout these negotiations and of course afterwards. On the specific point about the WEU, it has of course an important role in strengthening the European component of the US Atlantic alliance and will have a chance to discuss arms control issues.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the Government's professed devotion to multilateral nuclear disarmament is not borne out by their reactions to this proposal? Is she further aware that if the public become convinced that the Government want no nuclear disarmament of any sort, under any circumstances, the consequences of that may well be that they lose the coming election?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, will not be surprised to hear that I do not accept his statement. Nor, I think, would my noble friends accept what he has to say. We have made a very positive response to the proposals that have been made. What is, of course, very important is that the conclusions are right.
§ Lord ChalfontMy Lords, following upon the question of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, will the Government continue to point out in the discussions that if all nuclear weapons are, by these negotiations, removed from Europe, the only deterrent then to aggression will be strategic nuclear weapons? We shall therefore have returned to the dangerous doctrine of massive retaliation. I do not know whether that is what the nuclear disarmers want. Will the noble Baroness also assure the House that we shall stick to one of the basic principles of all arms control and disarmament negotiations, which is to treat nuclear weapons and conventional weapons together and in phase and not to concentrate on one or the other?
§ Baroness YoungYes, my Lords. As always, the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, makes very important points. I agree in particular about the importance of arms control both in conventional and in chemical weapons.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, would the noble Baroness answer the first supplementary question which I asked? Is it the case that the Soviet offer more than satisfies every condition that has been put down by the West for the removal of nuclear weapons from Europe? Is she aware that this is the first time that the British Government have linked the removal of nuclear weapons to the balance of conventional weapons? Would it not be more sincere, if the Government believe in disarmament, for them now to be putting their whole weight behind the historic 1358 opportunity to abolish nuclear weapons throughout Western Europe rather than, as has been seen recently, the Prime Minister and her Government trying to obstruct even the United States' Administration in their response to the move that has been made unilaterally by the Soviet Union?
§ Baroness YoungAbsolutely not, my Lords. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has taken very seriously, as do the Government, the offer of Mr. Gorbachev, which, as I indicated in my first Answer, we are studying closely along with our NATO allies. As I should have thought the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, must be aware from the other points that have arisen during this Question, we need also to consider NATO's overall deterrence requirements in the light of the totality of the threat that faces us; that is to say, from conventional as well as from chemical and nuclear weapons.
§ Lord Irving of DartfordMy Lords, does the Minister accept that the right response in all matters of disarmament is to test the sincerity of Mr. Gorbachev and his willingness to change? The Prime Minister expressed a great deal of confidence in him when she was in Moscow and afterwards. While seeking safeguards, we must make sure that we do not allow the past to prevent us from building a constructive and peaceful future together.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I do not think that there is any doubt about that. The conversations between my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and Mr. Gorbachev were a very full and frank expression of views by both sides, each contributing to the task of building greater trust and confidence between our two countries and between the East and the West, which was in itself valuable. As I said earlier, we are taking the proposals that are before us very seriously indeed. It is of course for the Americans and the Russians to negotiate those matters. However, it is important that the cohesion of the allies remains and that we consult fully with our allies.
Lord Paget of NorthamptonMy Lords, does the Minister agree that if we were to accept those terms we should be accepting a position in which we placed ourselves totally at the mercy of Mr. Gorbachev's good will? That might turn out to be very fortunate. However, that is the situation. We have a very good army but we will have no thanks and no allies.
§ Baroness YoungYes, my Lords. We have accepted the zero-zero option on longer-range intermediate nuclear weapons. The two matters which now concern us are verification and short-range weapons.