Metropolitan Police Area: Crime Rate (Hansard, 9 April 1987)

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, in 1986 recorded crime in the Metropolitan Police district increased by less than the national average. We have increased the resources available to the Metropolitan Police; decisions about the operational use of these resources are the responsibility of the commissioner, not the Government. My right honourable friend has endorsed the commissioner's strategy for 1987 with its continued emphasis on crime prevention and crimes which cause particular public concern, such as robbery and burglary.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. But would he not agree that though the majority of offences are committed, as I understand it, by young people below working age, nevertheless Sir Kenneth Newman in his report indicated that unemployment is a major factor in the steady and substantial increase in the crime rate in the metropolitan area? Does it not seem strange therefore that the Minister's right honourable friend the Home Secretary in another place claimed that the Government's strategy regarding crime was actually succeeding? Does it not seem odd that something that is against the public interest and increasing is described 1112 as a success, when, obviously, the indication is that more needs to be done?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, as the noble Lord will know, this Government have devoted considerable extra resources to the Metropolitan Police in order to combat the crime rate. But extensive research has not shown any direct link between levels of crime and those of unemployment. In the past 30 years, recorded crime has risen but employment levels have varied.

§ Lord Wigoder
My Lords, does the amount of reported crime necessarily involve any increase in the amount of crime committed?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, of course it is difficult to say that there is any exact relationship between the two; but there may be a greater number of smaller crimes being reported that previously were not.

§ Baroness Sharples
My Lords, can my noble friend say how many neighbourhood watch schemes are now in existence within the Metropolitan area?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, I cannot give my noble friend the exact number, but I can say that the Home Secretary particularly welcomes the continued emphasis that the commissioner has given to crime prevention which includes neighbourhood watch schemes. I believe that there are over 6,000 schemes in operation.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, if the police are to be successful—I am sure that is what everybody wants—surely they deserve and have the right to expect the full-hearted co-operation of all the local boroughs. Instead of that, in the inner London area there are a number of people who spend their whole time attacking, sneering, calling the police everything they can—

Noble Lords
Question!

§ Lord Mellish
It really is a deplorable example of lack of co-operation when the police are crying out for help and not criticism.

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, I am sure your Lordships concur that all right-thinking people will agree with the noble Lord.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, might not it seem counter-productive, as was shown in the first question, if this grievous problem were to be used in order to put forward rabid party political points instead of being approached on a basis of unity that the damage flowing from it deserves?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, I agree. Having said that the Government are very concerned about the rise in crime, we are devoting considerable resources to deal with it.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, reverting to the original supplementary question of the noble Lord, Lord Dean of Beswick, is it not a fact that for several years more than half the indictable offences in the metropolitan 1113 area have been committed by young people under the age of 21? Has the Minister seen an internal Metropolitan Police report quoted in the Independent newspaper last Monday which, having made the point that unemployment among the young has a direct influence on crime, goes on to say: The process of the political, social and economic marginalisation"— "alienation", I believe, would be a happier word— of the young unemployed removes them from the network of informal social control". Is it not in that area that we should be looking for an answer to the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Dean of Beswick?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asks about unemployment and crime, and I have answered that question. I believe that there is a high risk of crime in inner city areas and the Government are tackling this problem. They are tackling it through urban renewal and a number of programmes including the urban programme, the priority estates project, the community programme and the inner cities initiative.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, has my noble friend the Minister some sympathy with the police who do the best they can to prevent crime but whose efforts are diverted by massive organised demonstrations of public disorder?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
Of course, my Lords, where police resources are needlessly tied up in dealing with these sorts of things, then they are not on crime prevention duties.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, is it not the case that debates and discussions in this House show that we, on this side of the House, fully support the actions and attempts of the police to deal with crime? What is lacking is particularity about crime prevention, the degree of success it has accomplished and the results in regard to detection and prevention.

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, I welcome the assurances from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones. I am sure that all your Lordships support the police in doing the very best they can. But it is not just a matter of throwing money at the problem; it is not just a matter of throwing manpower at the problem. It is a matter of careful planning. I believe that the commissioner is undertaking a number of initiatives to try to solve the difficulties.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, the noble Lord has not answered my questions. For example, what has happened in the matter of the detection of crime? What particular steps are now being taken in the field of crime prevention over and above what has been done before?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, I have already mentioned the neighbourhood watch schemes. Many of your Lordships will know that we have undertaken a programme of civilianisation of roles within the Metropolitan Police in order to release more officers 1114 for crime detection and crime prevention. We also greatly welcome the progress which the commissioner has made in regard to the reorganisation of the force. This is now nearing completion. Some 200 officers are shortly to be released for operational duties.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the purpose of my Question was not in any way to criticise the police, because they have my total support? I, like the rest of your Lordships, have no time at all for people in local authorities who seem to find some pleasure in obstructing the police in their duties. But the fact is that Sir Kenneth Newman is not the first police chief, a specialist in his job, who has drawn attention to the fact that he believes unemployment to be a contributory factor in the deteriorating situation. Is it not about time that the Government stopped saying that it is not?

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, I have said that there is no direct link. We believe that problems in the inner cities have contributed to crime; but I am quite sure that the commissioner and his force will continue to do the very best they can both in detecting and in preventing crime.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, it is all very well for the Minister to say that there is no direct link. Research findings may not have established it; but common sense and knowledge of what young men between the ages of 16 and 21 are like surely tell him that if those young men have nothing to do and have no money they will get into trouble.

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, I think it would be quite unreasonable to say that there is any direct link, whether people are in work or out of work, as to whether they commit crimes.

Viscount Tonypandy
My Lords, is it not insulting to those who are unemployed to suggest that they are more likely to resort to crime? I consider it thoroughly offensive to a large proportion of our public.

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, I would not disagree with the noble Viscount.

§ Lord Wilson of Langside
My Lords, does not the Minister agree that unemployment makes it more difficult for those on the Bench—any Bench—to deal with crime? In the old days one could say to these young people in particular, "If you find yourself a job and keep out of trouble, I will defer sentence for six months or put you on probation", and so on. Today if you say that from the Bench, they just laugh at you because they know that jobs are very difficult to find.

§ Lord Beaverbrook
My Lords, of course there are difficulties for magistrates, but I cannot believe that there is any excuse for crime.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, is it not a fact that in the metropolitan area, to which this Question refers—

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, we have had 10 minutes now on this Question and we have two more Questions. I think the House may feel that we should go on to the next one.