§ 3.7 p.m.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have studied the NATO committee report on the decline in Western merchant fleets and what action they propose to take on it.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)My Lords, yes indeed. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport referred to the report in a speech on 10th December last. He then announced the Government's proposals for a Merchant Navy Reserve, assistance to the training of seafarers, and assistance with crew relief costs. These measures are designed to sustain the contribution of our fleet to the alliance pool and to the support of our armed forces. The Government are also taking a leading role in the alliance's response to the report.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, is it the case that last year the number of United Kingdom registered ships fell from 627 to 523, and that this latter figure represented a reduction of 70 per cent. since 1980? Is it also the case that the number of seafarers employed has fallen from over 61,000 in 1980 to 29,000 last year? Can the Minister say whether it is the case that United Kingdom flagships carried 34 per cent. of United Kingdom trade in 1980 and only 23 per cent. in 1985? Does the noble Lord believe that the measures that he has outlined will have any effect in stopping this haemorrhage of United Kingdom ships and United Kingdom seafarers?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, the noble Lord has asked four questions; I suspect that he knows the answers to the first three. As regards the success of these measures, we very much hope that they will encourage ships to stay on the United Kingdom register. There are many reasons why shipping has left the register not only in this country but throughout NATO countries to much the same extent.
§ Lord ChalfontMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this severe reduction in the mercantile marine of the United Kingdom will have a very serious effect upon the ability of the Royal Navy to perform its tasks in wartime? Will the Government take this aspect of the merchant fleet very seriously indeed?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, we certainly take that aspect very seriously indeed. At the present time we are confident that there are sufficient UK ships to meet the needs of the United Kingdom's armed forces, but it is something obviously that we watch very closely.
§ Lord UnderhillMy Lords, does the Minister recall, as one of the important persons who attended a symposium at Greenwich in October under the auspices of the National Maritime Museum, when the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, was also present, that the 690 general note was one of serious concern over the decline of the British merchant navy and also the decline in the number of trained seafarers? The whole tenor of the conference was one of great concern. That concern was expressed subsequently by the Chief of Naval Staff, who was worried about the future position of the merchant navy and the trained staff.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I was indeed present at that conference, or part of it, and I am aware of the concern that was expressed. That of course is one of the reasons why the Government announced their proposals to give assistance, among other things, to the training of seafarers.
Lord Campbell of CroyMy Lords, following the question by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, are the Government confident that they can rely on the services of certain vessels which are flagged-out to other registries in defence emergencies?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, that is one of the matters to which the NATO report drew attention, and we are certainly very active in attempting to make progress in our discussions with various flagged-out countries in order to be able to get our UK-owned shipping back in those circumstances.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, can my noble friend the Minister say whether he has any information about the growth of the Soviet and Eastern bloc merchant navy in parallel with the growth of their—shall I say—naval navy?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I have no figures available at the moment, but I shall certainly attempt to find some and let my noble friend have them. However, it is of course a fact that the Soviet merchant navy has grown considerably over recent years.
Lord WinstanleyMy Lords, can I ask the noble Lord if he was endeavouring to create a new precedent by declining to answer the first three questions of the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, on the grounds that he suspected that the noble Lord knew the answers? Is it not a fact that we would not dream of asking questions unless we knew the answers and that we should not like a precedent of that kind to be established?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, if the noble Lord refers to the Standing Orders, he will see that only one question is meant to be asked at a time.
§ Lord GreenwayMy Lords, is the Minister able to tell the House whether there have been any discussions with regard to the possibility of setting up a strategic merchant navy reserve of ships, not seafarers, such as exists in the United States?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, that is something which is referred to in the NATO report. It would need a certain amount of consideration concerning cost and crewing, but it is under consideration.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in the period to which I referred, United 691 Kingdom seaborne trade was increasing and did increase by 20 per cent? However, is it not a fact that during that same period the contribution of United Kingdom-controlled seaborne trade fell from a surplus of £141 million in 1980 to a deficit of over £1 billion in 1985? Are not the Government seriously concerned, both on economic as well as on national grounds, about this collapse of the merchant navy?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, there are many reasons why the number of ships in the British merchant navy has fallen, as indeed has the number of ships in the merchant navies of most of the developed world. This has mainly been due to flagging-out to obtain cheaper crew costs. To attempt to subsidise to the extent that would be required to keep ships on the British register would be very expensive indeed.
§ Lord Mowbray and StourtonMy Lords, while dealing with the question of my noble friend Lord Campbell of Croy, can my noble friend the Minister tell me what is the likely number of British-owned ships under the British flag and the likely number of British-owned ships under flags of convenience?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I do not have the figures for the total of British-owned ships under flags of convenience, but of course there are quite a number. There is also quite a number of ships which are re-registered—for instance in the Isle of Man—and so they are still available for defence purposes.
§ Lord Mowbray and StourtonMy Lords, is it not possible to give me some sort of clue? Are we talking about 50:50 or 75:25 or what?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, as I had no notice of this question, I do not have the figures with me, but I can certainly write to my noble friend.