Nuclear Weapons: Response to Attack (Hansard, 20 October 1986)

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)
My Lords, all British nuclear weapons are committed to NATO which is a purely defensive alliance. NATO heads of government have pledged publicly that no NATO weapons, either nuclear or conventional, will ever be used except in response to an attack. Given the Warsaw Pact's superiority over NATO in conventional forces in Europe, a declaration that NATO would never be the first to use nuclear weapons could heighten rather than reduce the risk of war.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for that encouraging reply. When she talked about "in the event of an attack", does that mean that nuclear weapons could be used if there were a conventional attack by the Russians, or is she saying that the Russians must use a nuclear weapon before NATO will retaliate?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I do not intend to go into hypothetical questions of that nature.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, is it the Government's policy so to increase the conventional strength of NATO that we can contain a Soviet conventional attack without recourse to nuclear weapons?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, will know what the Government's policy is from the Answer that I gave to the original Question.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, is it not a fact that this is a nonsensical question? Britain's attitude since 1945 has demonstrated to the world that we need peace more than any other nation. What sort of rubbish are we being asked now?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I think that once again the noble Lord, Lord Mellish, has spoken for many of us. What is important is that, in effect, we have had the longest period of peace in Europe this century. The nuclear deterrent has made a major contribution to that.

§ Lord Gladwyn
My Lords, is it not a fact that whatever NATO's decision may be, if there is an attack by the Russians anywhere in Europe in which only conventional weapons are used, whether to use nuclear weapons to check that conventional onslaught will in practice depend upon the President of the United States? He may indeed seek our advice, but whether in such circumstances nuclear weapons are to be employed will be an American decision. Personally I think that it is doubtful whether they would use them.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, as I said in answer to an earlier question, it is not profitable to go into hypothetical questions.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is it not permissible and not at all hypothetical to ask the noble Baroness whether the Government might not be well advised to change their policy? Is their present policy not quite incredible? There is no possibility, if nuclear weapons were not used, that we would be the first to use them. In those circumstances, if we are not going to use nuclear weapons, what the devil is the use of having them?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the reason for having them is the reason that was given by the noble Lord, Lord Mellish, in an earlier question. They have deterred. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, may well 3 laugh at all this but since the ending of the Second World War we have had the longest period of peace in Europe this century. The nuclear deterrent has contributed to that and in our view the Labour Party's policy is a dangerous one.

§ Lord Beloff
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that our anxieties have been considerably allayed by Mr. Kinnock's announcement that it is proposed to raise a home guard among British residents on the Continent to support the army of the Rhine? Are there not also reliable reports that the Russian Red Army is now shaking in its shoes? Is it therefore perhaps unnecessary to consider the problem of deterrence any more?

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that this question is serious? Will she make it clear that she meant that on its own Britain would never hurl a thermo-nuclear bomb at anybody, but that it may be necessary to do so in conjunction with our NATO partners? The only thing we can do to try to reduce that risk is to improve our conventional weapons and to encourage our NATO allies to do the same so that the eventuality that I have just mentioned need never arise.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I take this whole issue very seriously and so do the Government. What is important is that the whole object of the NATO weapons system is to deter aggression against us. In that, it has so far been successful.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness the serious question whether it is the British Government's policy that NATO should build up its conventional strength in order to be able to resist a Soviet conventional attack without recourse to nuclear weapons? When I asked that question before, the noble Baroness said that she had answered it in her original Answer. If that is the case, was the answer yes or no?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the policy of NATO is that it is a defensive alliance. We have repeatedly made clear that NATO would never use any weapons except in response to an attack.

§ Viscount Mountgarret
My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that, quite honestly, in all things flexibility is entirely desirable? It must surely be impossible to give a categorical answer to a somewhat hypothetical question. If one is going to have to give a definite answer, one's hands might be tied behind one's back. It must therefore surely be impossible to give a definitive answer in a hypothetical situation.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend Lord Mountgarret for that question. As I have indicated in reply to other supplementary questions, it would be most unwise to speculate on hypothetical situations. I do not therefore wish to be drawn into this matter.

§ Lord Chalfont
My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether it is not true that the policy of 4 NATO is to meet any attack by the Soviet Union with all the force at its command, and to use it flexibly? Are we not members of NATO, and is it not true therefore that the British Government subscribe entirely to that NATO doctrine?

§ Baroness Young
Yes, my Lords, that is correct. It is a policy of flexible response that is pursued not only by us but by our NATO allies.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether it is not desirable that our strategy in the event of war should not be disclosed?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I am extremely sorry. I did not hear the last part of the noble Lord's question.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, I asked whether it was not desirable that our strategy in the event of war should not be disclosed. I am an old company sergeant-major of the first war, so my voice has not perhaps penetrated to the other side of the Chamber.

§ Baroness Young
On the contrary, my Lords. I heard the noble Lord perfectly the second time. I apologise for missing part of the question when he asked it originally. I am sure that what he says is very wise advice. That is why the answers are given in general terms.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, I seek your Lordships' permission to assure the noble Baroness that I was not laughing at her. I was merely laughing at her reliance on the noble Lord, Lord Mellish.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, that is an honour, anyway.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, it never crossed my mind that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, was laughing at me. This is not, I think, actually a laughing matter. It is a very serious matter. We need to consider the facts of the case. The Government are very concerned at the Labour Party's proposed policy on ending nuclear weapons.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Baroness not aware that people are alarmed? Does she not agree that those who were not born at the time but who have seen films of Nagasaki believe it would be a frightful situation if that could possibly happen again? They see no humour whatever in the matter. Anyone who does so needs to be medically examined. Can the noble Baroness say that it would be in an extreme circumstance that we should be compelled within NATO to use the nuclear weapon, but that in order to try to avert that we shall build on our nuclear force, make our conventional forces as modern as possible, and provide the attractive conditions in which people find satisfaction in being part of the British armed forces?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I believe that I have answered both parts of the noble Lord's question, once in replying to the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, and again in replying to the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, at the beginning of his Question.