§ 11.8 a.m.
§ Lord Harris of GreenwichMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a statement on the disturbances which have occurred outside the premises of News International in Wapping; and whether they will state how many police officers have been injured and how many demonstrators have been convicted by the courts.
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, 393 police officers have been injured in this dispute and 900 people have been convicted of offences connected with it. In this country there is a long tradition of peaceful protest within the law, but it is clear that some of those taking part in these demonstrations have attended with the intention of committing and provoking violence. The way forward lies in sensible co-operation between the police and responsible trade unionists organising such demonstrations to reduce disorder and prevent violence, which only the troublemakers want.
§ Lord Harris of GreenwichMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. May I ask him whether he is aware that all of us wish to express our deep regret that 393 police officers have been injured during the course of this dispute? If he further aware that this vicious hooliganism has now continued for many months and is beginning to have a profound effect on the quality of policing throughout the metropolitan police district because of the call on resources? Does he agree that the sooner responsible trade union leaders cease to call for large-scale demonstrations at Wapping, the sooner the people of this city will have the quality of police protection that they deserve?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I am grateful for the remarks made by the noble Lord about the police and I shall make sure that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is made aware of them. The need for officers to be deployed in this way is regrettable and must have an effect on the service which the police are able to provide elsewhere. The precise effect on crime levels is of course unlikely to be quantifiable, but I am pleased to be able to report to the House that the level of police attendance required in order to maintain law and order has declined substantially since August, and I hope that all responsible members of trade unions will seek to co-operate with the police to reduce violence to an absolute minimum and preferably to eliminate it altogether.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, are not those who take it upon themselves to organise these nightly riots, with the consequences about which my noble friend has told us, guilty of a number of offences and is it contemplated that proceedings should be taken against them?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, as I said in my original Answer, 900 people have been convicted of 1021 offences connected with the dispute. Whether they include those who have organised and encouraged the violence I am afraid I cannot say.
§ Lord MishconMy Lords, may I ask— I shall give way to the noble Lord.
Lord Paget of NorthamptonMy Lords, is the Minister aware that the person who is responsible for causing all this trouble is a tycoon who has set out to upset the established customs of an industry and to disrupt the working lives of many hundreds of people? Does he not agree that what the Government ought to be doing is finding means to curb and control tycoons of the Murdoch type?
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, can my noble friend say whether the Public Order Bill will help to strengthen the powers against these practices, and if so, will the Government make sure that the clause dealing with these powers is brought into effect at the earliest possible moment?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I note my noble friend's support for the Public Order Bill. Of course anyone who commits an act of violence or comes within the remit of the Bill when it becomes an Act and is subject to prosecution will be dealt with in the normal way.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the Minister aware that, notwithstanding the fact that little negotiation was entered into by the employer's side—and such negotiation might have prevented much of what has gone on—the fact that it has gone on is no excuse for there now to be no proper negotiation between the sides? He was right when he said that every month throughout the year negotiations between trade unions and managements are embarked upon in Britain with agreeable conclusions. Is he further aware that he was also right when he pointed out that people can demonstrate but that it is those who go outside that freedom to demonstrate and use violence and other unlawful means who must be condemned, and not the British protestor?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, it would be wrong for me to comment on an industrial dispute. The police are seeking to maintain law and order and a peaceful existence for people. I am grateful to the noble Lord for his comments. He will doubtless be supporting the Government on the Public Order Bill.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords, does my noble friend consider that the powers available to the courts under Clauses 11 to 14 of the Public Order Bill are sufficient to deal with persistent offences of this nature?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, with due respect to my noble friend, as we have a Report stage coming up next week on that detailed matter, it would perhaps be best to defer consideration until then.
Viscount St. DavidsMy Lords, does my noble friend recall that on Wednesday in answer to a question of mine he said that the Bill would contain clauses relating to "putting in fear"? Is it intended to use those clauses in a case such as this?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, if it is felt by the police that the perpetrator of harassment or violence falls within the relevant clauses of the Public Order Bill, I am sure that they will take action.
§ Lord MishconMy Lords, is it the will of your Lordships' House that I now put a short and succinct question? Is the Minister aware that we on these Benches will always support the right to lawful, peaceful picketing and will always oppose violence and hooliganism?
§ Lord RentonMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that, as embodied in the statutory code of practice and as agreed by responsible trade union members, lawful picketing is supposed to be confined to six people in any one place? If that statutory code had been observed, there would not have been the trouble at Wapping that there has been. May we call upon responsible trade unionists to co-operate with the police to see that the code is enforced?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I entirely support my noble friend in what he says when he urges responsible trade unionists to liaise with the police on those matters and to ensure that violent demonstrations do not occur.
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, in his earlier response my noble friend said that 900 people had been convicted. Can he tell us what the penalties were for those 900 people? Were they sufficient to discourage the continuation of those unseemly rows at Wapping night after night, month after month?
§ Lord Harris of GreenwichMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that all of us believe, I hope, in the right of people to picket in industrial disputes? Is he also aware that picketing should be by means of peaceful persuasion, and that there is no relationship between what is going on at Wapping and peaceful persuasion? Is he further aware that in future those who call for large-scale demonstrations, as they are continuing to do, must bear full responsibility for the risk of injury to police officers? Such injuries have already taken place, as we heard today.
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I take note of the noble Lord's point. I am sure that responsible trade unionists when organising a demonstration will be even more aware as a result of what your Lordships have said of the need to keep the demonstration small and peaceful.