§ 3.6 p.m.
§ Lord Harris of GreenwichMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what further action they are proposing to take against those local authorities which have withdrawn News International newspapers from public libraries, following that company's dispute with the printing trade unions.
§ The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Lord Belstead)My Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister for the Arts considers that it is totally unacceptable for library authorities to withdraw News International newspapers from public libraries. He has written to the authorities concerned to say that they may be contravening the Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 and should review their decisions. The matter has now been brought before the courts by News International and a judgment is expected shortly. The Minister will decide what future action to take in the light of the judgment in that case.
§ Lord Harris of GreenwichMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that not altogether satisfactory reply. May I ask him whether he is aware that what he said at the beginning of his reply certainly represents overwhelming opinion in your Lordships' House? May I, however, ask two specific questions? First, on 31st July the noble Lord told me that the Minister was taking the first step in the formal exercise of his default powers under the Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964. He gave the local authorities until 1st September to reply. What were the replies from the defaulting local authorities?
Secondly, what is the situation in Scotland, where, as far as I am aware, there is no outstanding litigation? Is the noble Lord aware that a number of Scottish local authorities are also banning The Times, The Times Educational Supplement> and The Times Higher Educational Supplement from public libraries because 908 of the dispute? Is he further aware that under Section 211(1) of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, the Secretary of State has powers to take action? Is he prepared to take that action?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for saying that the first part of my Answer was acceptable to him. In the letter sent at the end of July to the library authorities concerned my right honourable friend's view was made clear. It was that a local authority which bans newspapers to make a political or industrial point will almost certainly be acting ultra vires the Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964. The noble Lord asked what had happened as a result of that letter. Out of 26 English library authorities complained of, six have now lifted their ban and three appeared not to have imposed a ban at all. Of the rest, 15 have sent replies which are by no means altogether clear and two have not replied.
The statutory situation in Scotland is slightly different. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is also watching the position closely.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, in regard to the possibility of the sub judice rule applying, is this matter before the courts? I put that question without knowing the answer for a change.
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord. The answer is yes. News International commenced judicial review proceedings in the High Court on 8th October against three authorities. I understand that the judgment is expected shortly.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, in view of that answer would it not be improper to pursue the matter further, except perhaps to say that when the judgment is issued it may be legitimate to hope that it will be in general terms and will not refer to specific newspapers?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, that will presumably be a matter for the court.
§ Lord Harris of GreenwichMy Lords, is the Minister aware that there is no legal action being taken in the Scottish courts. I say this to reassure noble Lords on my left. That being so, will he agree to discuss this matter with the Secretary of State for Scotland as a matter of urgency, because it appears from the Local Government (Scotland) Act that the Secretary of State for Scotland has the power to take action against local authorities who behave with the degree of gross impropriety shown by a number of Scottish local authorities? In that situation—when there is no question before the courts in Scotland—will the Minister undertake to discuss this matter with the Secretary of State for Scotland as a matter of urgency?
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, may I intervene again on this interesting matter? In so far as this matter is before the Scottish courts—
§ Lord BelsteadNo, it is not, my Lords: the English courts.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, the matter is before the High Court of this country relating to a Scottish matter.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesI am sorry, my Lords. I think that I myself am not being very successfully sub judice at the moment.
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, in view of the fact that the noble and learned Lord is a very distinguished representative of the Principality, perhaps a slight error in this matter is understandable. But of course the noble and learned Lord was quite right to draw the attention of the Government to the fact that this matter is before the High Court. Perhaps I may make two comments in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Harris. If, after the judgment of the High Court, my right honourable friend the Minister for the Arts thinks it necessary to act, he will act quickly. Indeed, I shall draw the attention of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to this exchange this afternoon.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, will the Minister bear in mind that many of the customers of the Scottish libraries may not want to read these English newspapers?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, we are discussing statutory duties under the Act of 1964, and I shall confine myself to that.
§ Lord RentonMy Lords. is my noble friend aware that some of the local politicians in Scotland who have been causing this interference with the freedom of distribution of newspapers are among those who are most clamorous in their desire for freedom of information?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I am very glad to have that pointed out to me by my noble friend.
§ Lord GladwynMy Lords, how long has this matter been outstanding? Is not the law taking a great deal of time to make up its mind?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, this situation has been continuing during the summer months, but the fact of the matter is that it has been necessary for my right honourable friend, in a matter which has never before been tested by the courts, to find out the facts of the case. My right honourable friend therefore sought information from library authorities, took legal advice, and then gave the library authorities the Government's view in no uncertain terms, I think with some success. Meanwhile, however, a case has been brought and we feel that it is now right to await the judgment of the court.
§ Lord AnnanMy Lords, will the Minister draw the attention of his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education to a report that appeared not merely in The Times this morning but in the Guardian two days ago to the effect that a lecturer at Ruskin College, Oxford, who has impeccable Labour views, 910 has been deprived of his lectureship by the authorities of Ruskin College for publishing an article in The Times? Will he further draw the attention of the Secretary of State for Education to the fact that this may mean that no further funds should be received by Ruskin College from government sources? Will he also draw the attention of Mr. Willis of the Trades Union Congress to the fact that the Association of University Teachers has made no representations on behalf of this lecturer, who is now being oppressed by the authorities of his college? Does the Minister not think that rather despicable on the part of a trade union?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, that interesting intervention I think goes a little wide of the original Question, but I shall have great pleasure in drawing the attention of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education to what the noble Lord has said.