Bus Services, Glasgow (Hansard, 13 October 1986)

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, the Transport Act 1985 was intended to encourage competition, and thus benefit bus passengers. There is indeed vigorous competition in Glasgow. If competition were to produce severe traffic congestion, then the Traffic Commissioner could determine appropriate traffic regulation conditions in response to a request from the Traffic Authority.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer and I also congratulate him on his promotion to great things at the Department of Transport. It is good to see a member of the transport club in this House doing well. Nevertheless, as I understand it, we are speaking of something which is a little more than vigorous competition. Are the Government satisfied that the matter is not already out of hand at a time before deregulation has properly come into effect? Do the Government not fear a similar outbreak of anarchy on the streets of other towns and cities of this country?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his kind words. He asks whether this situation is already out of hand. As I understand it, there has been no request as yet from the regional council, which is responsible for traffic regulation conditions, to the Traffic Commissioner to determine appropriate traffic regulations. Of course that power is there if it is needed, and that would also apply in other parts of the country.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in Glasgow there are now buses in search of waiting passengers, which is an exact reversal of the situation which has been the experience until recently in most cities? Is this not a welcome change for most of the public?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, my noble friend is of course quite right. We were told, during the passage of the Transport Act 1985, that all the buses would disappear from the streets. It appears that exactly the opposite has happened.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, may I add my congratulations and best wishes to the noble Lord on his new appointment? I have also to apologise for the fact that my noble friend Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove, who is well aware of the situation in Glasgow, is not yet present because he has been delayed by fog on a flight from Glasgow.
Is the Minister aware that it has been stated that at certain peak periods there are no fewer than 350 buses an hour in Renfield Street? I am sure that that results in congestion. Is the Secretary of State proposing to make inquiries? If that number is to continue during peak periods (leaving out the question of other periods of the day), are steps being taken to collate information for the benefit of bus passengers?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his words of congratulation. I am sorry that his noble friend Lord Carmichael has been held up in Glasgow. I am glad that it was through no fault of the Government; we are still not responsible for the weather. As I said in my first Answer, it is for the regional council, if it feels that there is a problem with traffic, to apply to the Traffic Commissioner for traffic regulation conditions. As yet, I undersand that it has not done so.

§ Lord Somers
My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that when bus companies compete with each other, one of the grounds on which they compete is a quick arrival at the destination? Would he not agree that that could present a serious threat to road safety?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I would agree entirely. The Traffic Commissioner has power to take effective action against those who behave dangerously on the roads, as do the police if drivers are caught breaking the speed limit or doing some such thing.

§ Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove
My Lords, I must apologise for my late arrival, which was caused by the fog. I hasten to say that it was a London, not a Glasgow, fog. The Minister will be aware that in my home city, as I observed on several days and particularly on Saturday, there is quite incredible congestion. I apologise for not being present to hear his Answer, but I am sure he will have reports from his divisional offices on the conditions in Glasgow. People are wondering whether they will be required to wait until the competition has got rid of those who are not going to succeed in the long run. In that period must the citizens, businesses and commercial enterprises of Glasgow suffer this very serious inconvenience? It is horrendous when it becomes impossible for other traffic to use two miles of main road in the middle of a city.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, is no longer delayed by the fog. As I said in answer to an earlier supplementary question, it is within the capability of the regional council of the area to apply to the Traffic Commissioner for a traffic regulation condition if it thinks that that would help to solve the problem. I understand that so far it has not done so.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, following on the supplementary question of the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, is the noble Lord aware that public money is being used to swamp private operators who are trying to operate within the terms of the Act, because in Scotland there is still public money going into public transport in quite a large way?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
Yes, my Lords. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is keeping in close touch with the competition situation in Glasgow and elsewhere. If there were any evidence of anti-competitive behaviour, or if such evidence emerged, the Government would take appropriate action if necessary, and doubtless the Office of Fair Trading would do so as well.