HL Deb 25 November 1986 vol 482 cc432-4

2.39 p.m.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their attitude to the UN General Assembly resolution of 11th November 1986 calling on the Security Council to adopt comprehensive, mandatory sanctions against South Africa.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)

My Lords, we voted against this resolution because we oppose general economic sanctions which we believe would only serve to stiffen the South African Government's resistance to ending apartheid; to undermine further the stability of the region; and to destroy the jobs of large numbers of ordinary people in South Africa, in neighbouring countries and in Britain.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that in the commercial and financial world organisations such as Barclays Bank, IBM, General Motors, Kodak and many other such corporations take a different view from Her Majesty's Government? Is the noble Baroness prepared to take into consideration the rapidly increasing view of the commercial world so far as South Africa is concerned when this Motion is debated, as I believe it is due to be, in the Security Council?

Baroness Young

My Lords, our attitude to any possible motion in the Security Council is something that we would have to decide when such a resolution appears. At present, it is a hypothetical question.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, is the noble Baroness able to say whether the Government supports the action of Barclays Bank in withdrawing from South Africa? Would the Government be prepared to support other large British companies if they so decide to withdraw from South Africa? Finally, is the noble Baroness able to say whether the Government were consulted by Barclays Bank prior to the withdrawal, and what advice they gave?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the action of Barclays Bank is a matter for Barclays. It is a commercial decision for them. As regards the point about whether we were informed in advance, we were warned in very general terms.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, would the noble Baroness care to say what alternative measures—assuming that the Government disapprove of apartheid—they think the world and the British Government should take, apart from sanctions?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the attitude of the British Government has been very plain. We joined with our Community partners in a statement of the measures that we were taking in September. On the positive side, we have given considerable financial support to the black African community within South Africa.

Lord Mellish

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that sanctions are designed to help the coloured people? Would the noble Baroness like to make a comment as to whether they do?

Baroness Young

My Lords, as a general principle we have taken steps to help black South Africans within South Africa. As regards the particular issue of Barclays' disinvestment in South Africa, that, of course, is a matter for Barclays.

Lord Williams of Elvel

My Lords, will the noble Baroness answer my noble friend's second question, which was whether Her Majesty's Government would encourage other firms and other industries to withdraw from South Africa?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the question of whether a company should disinvest from South Africa is a matter for the commercial judgment of companies and not for Her Majesty's Government.

Lord Parry

My Lords, is it not a fact, however, that the judgment was taken on the grounds that apartheid is no longer profitable, not that apartheid is evil?

Baroness Young

My Lords, it is, I think, for Barclays to answer why they took the decision.

Lord Kinnaird

My Lords, would the noble Baroness perhaps not agree that it is about time that some of us stopped meddling in other countries' business?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I think that the attitude of the Government to South Africa, and particularly to the policy of apartheid, is well known, but of course my noble friend makes an important point.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, is it not the case that the chairman of Barclays Bank has already stated that the decision taken was not taken solely on commercial grounds, but also on political grounds? Is the noble Baroness aware that Barclays Bank have already announced that there is no reason to suppose that any employee will lose his job because of this disinvestment? When the noble Baroness speaks of the end of apartheid and the improvement of conditions in South Africa, is it not the case that just this week the Presidential Council's report on the Group Areas Act, which is a foundation stone of apartheid, has been shelved, and that therefore the hope expressed by Her Majesty's Government that the South African Government will get rid of apartheid is still as remote as it ever has been?

Baroness Young

My Lords, it is not my business to speak on behalf of Barclays and the reasons which led them to the decisions which they have taken, and I do not intend to move from that point. On the second point that the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, raised, the fact of the matter is that the South African Government have taken a number of steps to end apartheid but, as I have said to him on many occasions in the past and I say again, we think that they have been too few.

Lord Gisborough

My Lords, would my noble friend agree that there is a lot of evidence that the South African Government would like to have dismantled apartheid more quickly than they are doing but that they are held up by their electorate, who are insisting that apartheid remains? Therefore, is it not important to play to the electorate as much as it is to play to the government?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I think that the policies of the South African Government are again a matter for them, but, as I have said on many occasions, the British Government would like to see an end to the system of apartheid.

The Earl of Halsbury

My Lords, is it not time that we allowed Barclays Bank, General Motors, old Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all to get on with their own business and leave us to get on with ours?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I can only say, "Well said!"