HL Deb 06 November 1986 vol 481 cc1181-3

3.12 p.m.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[he Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government when the limited sanctions against South Africa agreed by the European Economic Community in September will be fully implemented.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)

My Lords, we have fully implemented the package of restrictive measures adopted by the Twelve on 15th and 16th September.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that that is a most welcome reply she has been able to give? Is she further aware that this will now encourage the United States of America, which is profoundly opposed to apartheid and indeed at one time was more determined than the British Government to see apartheid opposed? Will the economic sanctions that are now to be imposed also be increased so that we can show our solidarity both with the United States of America and with the victims of apartheid?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the Question relates to the measures agreed by the European Economic Community. The question of measures taken by the United States is, I think, outside the terms of the Question.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, will these sanctions be phased in or will they be brought in at once and, as far as practicable, together? Have any preparatory steps already been taken by the Government in this regard?

Baroness Young

Yes, my Lords. We have implemented them and, as I am sure the noble and learned Lord will be aware from the Written Answers given to Questions in this House on 30th October, we have indicated our view and what has happened on new investment and on tourism.

Lord Paget of Northampton

My Lords, can the noble Baroness assure us that these sanctions will not in any sense be applicable to Namibia, which has taken rather splendid steps to bring apartheid to an end?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the measures apply to South Africa.

Lord Gridley

My Lords, perhaps I may ask my noble friend the Minister whether she or any member of the Government saw the broadcast on Channel Four television last night (which I understand was not connected with the BBC) in which there appeared to be hopeful signs that various communities in that part of the world were coming together. For instance, I believe that the ANC were there to hear the opinions expressed and they felt that in order to avoid having excessive sanctions, or sanctions of any type, applied to them they should now try to work out something wherein whites, Africans and even the ANC are present to hear what has been decided.

Baroness Young

My Lords, the point that my noble friend raised is wide of the Question, but I can say to him, as I have said on many occasions, that as a Government we wish to see an end to the system of apartheid.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, can the noble Baroness inform the House of the Government's strategy so far as concerns the advocation of sanctions? Is the objective to express disapproval of apartheid—which has been done in words many times—or is it to reduce the power of the South African state to oppress its own citizens? If the latter is the case, would it be advisable for Her Majesty's Government to follow the lead of the American Congress and greatly strengthen the sanctions that are to be imposed?

Baroness Young

My Lords, at Brussels the Twelve decided to send a further signal to the South African Government indicating the need to change. The impact of the measures is not only economic: it is also a political signal.

Lord Monson

My Lords, can the noble Baroness say what good will actually be achieved by these sanctions? They will kick the increasingly prosperous black middle-class off the ladder which they are rapidly climbing at the moment, particularly in the hotel industry, and will force talented whites to emigrate. They also happen to be a good deal more anti-apartheid than the less talented whites who will remain.

Baroness Young

My Lords, I think the answer that I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, indicates the purpose of the measures that we have agreed to take in conjunction with our Community partners.

Lord Orr-Ewing

My Lords, can my noble friend say where one could obtain a list of the results of past sanctions and these sanctions to see whether they are being effective and are producing some results? For instance, in this country we read nothing about the degree of mixed sports which now take place on a very wide basis. We read nothing of the way in which some action has already been taken to lessen the severity of the well-despised and disliked methods of apartheid. We read nothing about any changes. Is there any way by which we can measure what is happening as a result of the actions taken by the EC and ourselves?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the particular point raised by my noble friend is of course wide of the Question. If he would like to put down a Question on that subject. I shall try to answer it. We have welcomed the steps that the South African Government have taken toward ending some aspects of apartheid, but we believe that they have been too few and too slow.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that even these limited sanctions in a way are supportive of the very brave speeches made by the Foreign Secretary when he was in South Africa? Not only was he appallingly snubbed then, but it is now clear that the recent changes in Mr. Botha's Government include people who helped to create apartheid. There is very little chance that they will voluntarily try to dismantle it, and the only hope for South Africa—and indeed it could be said for all mankind—is that black people all over the world will unite and that something will be done. We are on the right road with sanctions and I hope that we shall not be diverted from it.

Baroness Young

My Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord actually asked a question.

Lord Gisborough

My Lords, would my friend agree that the South Africans are fed up—

Lord Molloy

My Lords. we should not be diverted—

Noble Lords

Order, order!

Lord Molloy

My Lords. I asked a question in reference to the British Foreign Secretary. I asked whether the Minister was aware of the courageous statement of the British Foreign Secretary. She may not think that it was a courageous statement, and she is allowed to remain silent if she thinks fit.

Baroness Young

My Lords, the answer to that question is yes.

Lord Gisborough

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the South Africans are fed up with trying to break down apartheid in small ways and never getting any credit, and that if they were given credit when they did make progress they would be more inclined politically to go still further?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I hope my noble friend Lord Gisborough appreciates that in fact I indicated that the South African Government had taken a number of steps to break down apartheid. We wish that they would move faster and do more.