HL Deb 03 November 1986 vol 481 cc903-6

2.46 p.m.

Lord Ennals

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the average number of patients on the hospital waiting list in England and Wales during the period of the Labour Government from 1974 to 1979, and what are the corresponding figures for the Conservative Government from 1979 to 1986, expressed on an annual basis.

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, the estimated average size of the in-patient waiting list in England and Wales for May 1974 to May 1979 was 624,000. Over the period the actual number waiting on the list rose to 792,000 at 31st March 1979. The estimated average for the period May 1979 to September 1985 was 702,000. The actual number waiting on the list on 30th September 1985 fell from 792,000 to 702,000.

Lord Ennals

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for the figures that she has given. Does she recognise that it is an extremely disturbing fact that on average, there have been roughly 80,000 more people on waiting lists during the period of this Government than there were during the period of the previous Government? Does she also recognise that the figure of 624,000 that she gave took into consideration a sharp rise during the period of industrial disputes? Does she recall that the figure that she gave me from May 1974 to May 1979 was 558,000 under a Labour Government and that from May 1979 to September 1984 the figure was 676,000, which is a rise of 118,000? As the Government have been in office so long, is it not time that they brought down the figures to below the average or at least to the average during the whole period of the Labour Government?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, the noble Lord may like to know that I have here a list dating from 1949 until 1985. It shows that under every Labour Government the waiting list rose, while under every Conservative Government it fell. Would the noble Lord like a copy of the list? I should be delighted to put it in the Library.

Lord Mayhew

Nevertheless, my Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that the huge figures which she quoted in her original Answer showed that neither Conservative nor Labour Governments have had the slightest success in handling this problem?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, let it not be forgotten that some 50 per cent. of all admissions to hospital are immediate and many of those on the waiting list already have a planned date of admission. To some extent waiting lists represent the problems of success. The wider range of treatments available, greater life expectancy and the increasing proportion of old people have all added to people's expectations and thus their demands on the National Health Service. But of course we want shorter waiting lists. That is why this Government have concentrated the attention of health authorities upon the need to make the best possible use of resources. This is one of the major tasks facing management.

Lord Nugent of Guildford

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that from 1978 to 1984 the number of hospital in-patients went up from 5.3 million to 6.1 million, an increase of 15 per cent? How is it then that the number on waiting lists has not come down even more than is shown in the figures she mentioned?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, on 30th September 1985—and I am doing a comparison with 1979—there were 702,461 people on the in-patient waiting list for all specialties.. some 80,500 fewer than in March 1979; 12,000 fewer than in March 1985; and 19.000 fewer than in September 1984. During the period of industrial action between March and December 1982 the total increased by more than 130,000. Furthermore, the number of people who have been treated has gone up very much indeed.

Lord Ennals

My Lords, may I go back to the figures that were given to me by the noble Baroness? Surely it is much more reasonable to compare a whole period of a government. Under the Labour Government there were 624,000 on in-patient waiting lists: there are now 702,000 under a Conservative Government. Can the noble Baroness say that that is improving the position? Is not the position very much worse than during the period of the Labour Government?

Baroness Trumpington

No, my Lords. The noble Lord asked me for the average figures. The average has very little meaning. It is the trend that matters. The crucial point is that in the period of the Labour Government there was a rising trend; waiting lists rose by a quarter of a million. Under this Government there has been a falling trend; waiting lists have fallen by 90,000 since March 1979.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, will my noble friend recommend to the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, that if he desires to score points by statistical juggling he would do better to hand the task to his noble friend Lord Bruce of Donington?

Lord Underhill

My Lords, I do not seek to bring this issue down to a matter of party politics, but is the noble Baroness aware that many of us have had first-hand accounts of hospital wards being completely closed at weekends? Does she deny that that is the case? When such reports are received at the department, what action is taken?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, as I said on 10th June last year, the fact that the National Health Service has been able to treat more patients in 1985—almost 1 million more than in 1978, in fewer beds—is a sign of its greater efficiency. The number of patients treated is what really matters and not the amount of furniture.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that I am quite unable to accept the accolade bestowed upon me by the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, which should be awarded in all conscience to that arch manipulator of figures, the noble Lord, Lord Young of Graffham?

The Countess of Mar

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that, despite the figures she has given, there has been a sharp deterioration in the numbers on waiting lists in the past 18 months? Her figures are not up to date. Has she read the article on page 1038 of the British Medical Journal on 18th October, which suggests that the DHSS waiting list is a poor indicator of patients awaiting admission to hospital, and that the true number, if day cases and planned admission cases were accounted for in the figures, would be nearly 80 per cent. higher? Does she agree that the figures would he more meaningful if those cases were included and if the expected duration of a stay in hospital was assessed?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, in-patient waiting lists do not include people waiting for day care, and never have. It is nonsense to suggest, as some have, that the steps the department took in 1979 to make this absolutely clear to health authorities were in any sense a fiddle, which I think is what the noble Countess was getting at. If that had been the case, there would have been a once and for all drop; in fact, there was a continuing reduction until the industrial action in 1982.

Lord Somers

My Lords, why must we have this playing about with figures just for party political advantage? Party politics mean very little to those who are waiting to get into hospital. Is it not a duty of any government, of whatever party or political colour, to see to it that the figures come down as rapidly as possible?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, it is the view of the Government that all cases are urgent and important to the individual patient. irrespective of whether the condition is life threatening. I certainly do not wish to play party politics on this matter. My right honourable friend's initiative is aimed at all cases to try to get rid of the waiting lists as much as possible.