§ Lord ButterworthMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what measures are being taken to meet the increasing demand for engineers.
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, government policies have increased the number of full-time and sandwich course students studying engineering in higher education from 59,000 in 1979–80 to 75,000 in 1983–84. Our most recent measure, the engineering and technology programme, announced in 1985, will add about a further 5,000 student places in engineering and technology on high quality degree courses by the end of the decade.
§ Lord ButterworthMy Lords, I should like to thank the Minister for that full reply, but, although the scheme to which she refers has provided additional places in special subjects like information technology and computing, it has recruited mostly from orthodox engineering courses and indeed from the polytechnics. May I ask whether the Government have any plan to tackle the problem of increasing the total number of engineers by tackling the problems in the schools?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, there is a demographic factor in all this. The Government responded to earlier demands from industry and created more places, which it may now be difficult to fill. That is why the emphasis is switching to schools. The Government are aiming to increase the syllabus awareness of schools in order to encourage more pupils to follow courses that will lead to further education in engineering and science subjects.
§ Lord TordoffMy Lords, are the Government aware that where we should be recruiting more engineers is from among women, and that it is in girls' schools that the pressure should be applied? There is a great lack in this country of women in engineering, and we compare badly with other countries.
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, in higher education only 8 per cent. of the engineering students in 1983 were women. Although it is a steadily increasing percentage, the figure speaks for itself. We feel that action to increase the number of women engineering undergraduates must begin in schools, and that perhaps relates back to the previous supplementary question. We need to increase the number of girls taking science subjects at A-level, and to do that we 290 must increase the number of girls studying science up to the age of 16. The Government's policy statement, Science: 5 to 16, proposes that all pupils, including girls, should be properly introduced to science in primary school and should continue to study a broad programme of science throughout the first five years of secondary education.
§ Lord AveburyMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that there is a general move in engineering to change from a three-year to a four-year degree course, but that some universities, such as the University of Oxford, have been told that they cannot take any more students on the existing courses, and the only way they have managed to cope is by initiating new courses such as that which Oxford is planning in the combined engineering and computing school? If it is correct for engineers to be given a four-year degree course, does the noble Baroness not think that the provision of funds should be adjusted upwards accordingly?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, the Government can only do their best to encourage universities to create more places. It is up to them how they use the funds provided by government in organising their courses. I recognise that there is an increase in longer courses, sandwich courses and the like in various universities throughout the country, many of which are proving extremely beneficial.
§ Lord GlenamaraMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that what is happening on the ground has little relation to the rosy picture that she has painted? For example, is she aware that the national advisory body for the public sector of higher education has proposed a reduction in the engineering department of Newcastle-upon-Tyne Polytechnic, which is one of the biggest and most successful in the country? What does the noble Baroness have to say about that? Can she tell us what effect the savage cuts for Durham University and Newcastle University, announced today, will have on their engineering departments?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, again I can only repeat what I said in my original reply. As far as government policies are concerned there has been an increase, and there is an intended increase, in the number of students on engineering courses. If individual universities choose to alter their courses as a result of that, it is up to the institution itself.
Lord MorrisMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether Her Majesty's Government find themselves in any difficulty in preferring the promotion of one learned profession over another? Furthermore, can she tell me whether that learned profession has done anything to promote its own interests?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, if my noble friend intended to ask what industry itself is doing, as I said the Government responded to its urgings that more student places be created in engineering, but a considerable responsibility rests on industry and commerce to ensure the success of those measures by signalling to young people that careers in engineering can be financially rewarding and stimulating. Other ways in which industry can help include the 291 sponsorship of students to attract particularly the most able to appropriate courses; the supply of key executives as visiting lecturers: the provision of expensive, up-to-date equipment to higher education establishments on loan or as gifts; and the provision of opportunities for students to obtain industrial experience within academic programmes.
§ Lord Taylor of BlackburnMy Lords, is the noble Baroness the Minister aware of the oustanding work that has been carried out by the Engineering Council, which has taken the initiative of taking the subject of engineering to teachers and pupils in schools to inform them of the possibilities that there are for pupils to enter into an engineering career? If she is so aware, what help is she giving to the council?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, the Government are aware of the initiative being taken by the Engineering Council. In particular, with this year being Industry Year, the Government are supporting the initiatives of the council and other organisations in a number of ways.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, will the noble Baroness say what will be the effect of today's statement about the funding of universities on the training of engineers in this country? Is she aware that there is a profound disquiet in Wales as a result of that statement? Is she further aware that the university colleges at Swansea, Cardiff and Bangor will have to deal with severe cuts as a result of today's statement? They have important engineering departments. What effect will the cuts have on those departments?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, my understanding of the University Grants Committee letter, to which I assume the noble Lord is referring, is that in it there is a specific reference to the planned increase in engineering and technical numbers which it is intended should be maintained. I have noted the noble Lord's remarks about the various institutions in Wales.
§ Baroness Carnegy of LourMy Lords, will the noble Baroness tell the House what is the level of success of the Engineering Industry Training Board's Insight Programme in persuading girls to undertake engineering degrees?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, the Engineering Industry Training Board's Insight Programme sponsors nine or 10 residential courses at universities each summer to give girls studying mathematics and science in schools a chance to find out about engineering as a career. So far about 1,200 girls have attended those courses and 50 per cent. of that total have subsequently taken engineering degree courses. I believe that is a measure which is proving valuable.
§ Lord RochesterMy Lords, now that the Amalgamated Engineering Union has at last accepted that apprentice training should be carried out on the basis of standards to be achieved rather than time to be served, what plans do the Government have to build 292 on that to meet industry's demands for engineering craftsmen and technicians?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, I can only refer back, once again, to my original Answer, which explained the increase in courses and the engineering and technology programme announced last year which will add another 5,000 student places in engineering and technology.