Whooping Cough Immunisation (Hansard, 14 May 1986)

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Baroness Trumpington)
My Lords, no, the Government are not satisfied. Although the percentage of children immunised against whooping cough in England has risen steadily in recent years, much remains to be done if we are again to achieve the high rates of the early 1970s. The department advises parents and the health professions that the risks of vaccination are greatly outweighed by the benefits of immunisation.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her reply. If the Government consider that the risk of any side effects from the vaccine is much less than the risk of death or damage from whooping cough, which is what I assume from her reply, will the Government make a special effort to publicise the 1135 desirability of this vaccination and encourage it? I am of course referring not only to England but to other parts of the United Kingdom. I noted that her reply was only for one part.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy. Of course, I meant to say the United Kingdom. The Health Education Council is presently running a major publicity campaign to inform parents of the current whooping cough epidemic and advise them on immunisation. The Government gave the council an additional £480,000 in 1985–86 which the council supplemented with £100,000 of its own funds to finance the campaign. We are evaluating its success and considering whether further action is needed.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, in supporting the noble Lord. Lord Campbell of Croy, may I ask whether the noble Baroness recalls that when this issue was considered on a Question by my noble friend Lord Molloy on 28th April, I referred to the court case for compensation for vaccine damage, which I said might have an adverse effect on the take-up of pertussis vaccine, and to whether the department had contingency plans for such a situation? The noble Baroness quite rightly said that because of the court case it would be inappropriate to comment. Now that the court has found in favour of compensation for a plaintiff, does the Minister feel that she can now state what are the special publicity measures—if there are special publicity measures—to counter the inevitable effect of a successful plea in the courts?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, we are aware that a number of cases have been brought where vaccine damage is alleged. In seven of them, proceedings have been issued against the department. As one case is currently before the courts, it is not appropriate for me to comment further. We shall consider whether any further action is needed in the light of the judgment.

Lord Winstanley
My Lords, will the noble Baroness emphasise that the need for immunisation against whooping cough is primarily in very young children who are particularly at risk from this disease? Will she also bear in mind that most doctors believe that whooping cough in older children is so trivial a disease that it does not warrant the slight risk in relation to the pertussis immunisation? With regard to the risk factor, will the noble Baroness accept that general practitioners at the moment are in some difficulty because of the different figures being published by different authorities on the precise risk involved in pertussis immunisation? It would be immensely helpful if the department were to disclose fully all the information in its possession on this point.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, regarding the first part of that question, I would confirm that whooping cough remains a serious disease among children, especially infants. It may be complicated by bronchitis, pneumonia, collapsed lungs and convulsions. In the two most recent epidemics, there were nearly 200,000 cases and 38 deaths. On the 1136 matter of advising parents on possible risks, the department helps fund the Health Education Council literature which explains the risks for parents. The risk is very slight compared with the safety that a vaccination will give.

Lord Morris
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that on national television news some months ago a spokesman for the medical profession stated quite clearly that only one child in 100,000 would be exposed to the risk of brain damage as a result of whooping cough vaccine? I ask my noble friend whether, if she had grandchildren, she would expose those children to that risk.

§ Baroness Trumpington
No, my Lords, I would not expose my children or my grandchildren (which is probably more suitable) if I had any, to the risk of non-vaccination. I think that the Prince and Princess of Wales gave a very good lead in that aspect by having their children vaccinated.

§ Viscount Hanworth
My Lords, does not the noble Baroness agree that there is everything to be said for vaccination, because if anything goes wrong you can now get compensation but if you are not vaccinated there is an almost equal chance of getting the same side effects for which there is no compensation available?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I do not know whether noble Lords understood that question. I actually did not.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, may I—

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, will the noble Baroness—

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, the noble Lord has a louder voice than I.

§ Lord Mellish
Yes, my Lords, and I happen to have seven grandchildren. Will the noble Baroness please issue figures showing the actual number of children who were hurt or at risk as opposed to the number of children who have had the vaccine and are not at risk? This is the kind of action that will convince the public that it is right to have the vaccine. Figures will do the trick. Will they please put the matter in proportion?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I should be delighted to see that those figures are published and made available in the Library.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, as a grandfather of nine grandchildren, may I therefore stake a claim? Is it not the case that the quality and efficacy of this vaccine has improved considerably in recent years?

§ Baroness Trumpington
Yes, my Lords; and I hope that one day I catch up with the noble and learned Lord.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, will the noble Baroness comment on the fact that there is a dilemma here? In the case of this and many other preventable diseases, once we have vaccinated down to a certain 1137 level then the risk from the vaccination itself becomes greater than the risk from the disease. We then cease to vaccinate; the danger of the disease then becomes greater and there comes a fluctuation. Is there any way of getting past this point?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, until we reach a 100 per cent. take-up of vaccination I do not see that it is possible to reverse the picture. It is my hope that we shall reach the 100 per cent. take-up level very soon.

§ Lord Kilbracken
My Lords, the noble Baroness referred to an infant. As the father of a four year-old and the grandfather of a 14 year-old, may I ask the noble Baroness to tell me how old is an infant?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, it is my belief that an infant is under five. Until your fifth birthday you attend an infants' school.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, can the noble Baroness say whether the doubts about the whooping cough vaccine have affected the take-up of other childhood vaccinations such as tetanus, diphtheria and polio?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, the NAO Report commends the results achieved in immunisation against diphtheria, tetanus and polio. That has led to the near elimination of those diseases. However, high up-take rates continue to be necessary to ensure that this success is not lost, and we expect health authorities to bear this in mind in setting targets.