HL Deb 02 May 1986 vol 474 cc505-7
Baroness Jeger

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their present estimate of the cost to local authorities and to the DHSS of bed and breakfast accommodation for the unemployed and for hotel and hostel accommodation for homeless families; and how many flats and houses to rent could be built for this amount of money by local authorities and housing associations.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I must apologise for the length of this Answer. According to information provided to the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy by 350 local authorities in England and Wales, their net expenditure on hostels and bed and breakfast accommodation for households accepted as homeless was some £18.4 million in 1984/85. Provisional annual expenditure for Great Britain on all supplementary benefit payments to people in board and lodging accommodation, including bed and breakfast accomodation, guesthouses and hostels, at December 1984 is some £503 million. It is estimated that some 70 per cent. of this relates to unemployed claimants.

Separate figures are not available on how many of these people were accepted as homeless by local authorities. The average cost of houses and flats built by local authorities and housing associations in 1985 was some £30,000.

Baroness Jeger

My Lords, has the Minister had time to look at a publication by five charities which deal with these problems? They have based their figures on official statistics which suggest that it costs £10,810 a year to keep a couple with two children in this temporary accommodation, whereas a council dwelling for the same family, at 10 per cent. interest over 60 years, would cost £4,740. We know that the Government are very bad at estimating the cost in human terms of this policy, but surely such a hard-nosed government, interested in finance, should look at least at the financial implications of this policy.

Why is the present Government's policy to reduce housing provision and to increase board and lodging accommodation, which means that money goes to landlords and there is no asset at the end of the day?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I have not seen the publication to which the noble Baroness refers. I should point out to her and to the House that it is not government policy to put people in board and lodging accommodation at all. The Government have consistently, through circulars, asked local authorities to use this form of accommodation only as a last resort.

With regard to the costs and the figures for housing in this case, I should point out that the Government have made an extra £200 million available this year. That will go some way to alleviate this problem if the local authorities decide to use it in the way that the House and I should like.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, while my noble friend is acting upon the somewhat unexpected request to him by the noble Baroness to consider the financial implications, will he also consider how much rented accommodation could be provided without cost to public funds if the present oppressive law of landlord and tenant were modified?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I have no doubt that this is a factor in the equation. But so also is the Audit Commission's recent conclusion that streamlining letting procedures could make over 20,000 extra dwellings available for letting.

Lord Mellish

My Lords, can the Minister explain why some local authorities (which I shall not name) have hundreds of empty flats and yet get involved in this extraordinary and terrifying expenditure? The noble Baroness has a right to ask the Question. But if local authorities have empty flats why do they not spend some money on repairing them and making them habitable, so as to avoid these terrifying costs?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. It is an absolute scandal that some local authorities have very high numbers of empty flats and council accommodation generally which could be made available quite speedily. They do not do that on the whole for political reasons. I would say that this is a management problem. If they took the course that the noble Lord advocates at the expense of new builds, they could do it within their financial limits quite happily.

Lord Graham of Edmonton

My Lords—

Lord Harmar-Nicholls

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend—

Lord Graham of Edmonton

Of course you can.

Lord Harmar-Nicholls

My Lords, I am grateful that the noble Lord, Lord Graham, has given me permission to ask a question of my noble friend.

Am I to understand from the way the questions are being put that the bed and breakfast and hotel and hostel accommodation for homeless families has only begun since 1979; or has it been in use by previous governments, who obviously found it the right way to deal with this rather tragic problem?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, my understanding is that this has been a factor in the situation for a number of years, and certainly before 1979.

Lord Graham of Edmonton

My Lords, noting the interest in the empty council properties, will the Minister comment on the fact that the largest number of empty dwellings are owned by the Government; that the next largest number of empty dwellings are in the private rented sector; and that the smallest sector that has properties which are empty and not let is the council sector?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, that may be true, but we are talking about local authority provision. The question addressed to me was about the empty flats and housing units in the local authority areas.

Lord Stallard

My Lords, if it is not the Government's policy to advocate bed and breakfast accommodation, and if they are so concerned about empty properties, why have they consistently refused to allow inner London boroughs, like Camden, to spend money on rehabilitating short life properties? For example, it would cost somewhere in the region of £32,000 to give a four-bedroomed house, which would accommodate a family of seven, a life of five years. It costs the council something in the region of £52,000 or £53,000 to keep that same family in bed and breakfast. Therefore, there is a difference of about £20,000. The Government refuse permission to allow such a house to be rehabilitated. That is part of the answer to the noble Lord, Lord Mellish. What is the Government's reply?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I do not think that it is part of the answer to the noble Lord, Lord Mellish. From the figures that I gave in my original Answer, the average cost of houses and flats built by local authorities and housing associations in 1985 was some £30,000. Such properties have a very much longer life than the five years to which the noble Lord referred in his supplementary question.