HL Deb 20 March 1986 vol 472 cc1043-4
Baroness Nicol

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how they propose to record the numbers of self-employed persons who are out of work.

The Secretary of State for Employment (Lord Young of Graffham)

My Lords, the monthly claimant count includes most previously self-employed people.

Baroness Nicol

My Lords, I am not quite sure that I fully understand the Answer which I have been given. My understanding was that self-employed people who are not in employment could not claim benefit. If this is not so, my whole Question is based on an incorrect premise. Will the Minister correct me before I go further?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, I was trying to set a precedent for the shortness of an Answer! Self-employed people who claim supplementary benefit are included in the count. The only people who are not would be self-employed people who were not eligible for unemployment benefit, but, in the event that people do not have sufficient means, they would be included in the count. Indeed, the survey shows that some 30,000 previously self-employed people who were seeking work but were not claiming benefit were therefore excluded from the count, but, at the same time, that was offset by 50,000 others who said they were claimants but were not seeking work or who had some paid work during the week in reference.

Baroness Nicol

My Lords, I was simply clarifying the Minister's reply to my original Question. The Minister will recall no doubt that on 20th February when we last discussed these statistics he was very emphatic about the need to have accuracy in the figures, and he said that self-employed people from now on were to be counted in the interests of accuracy. Therefore I am not quite clear how he redresses the balance on this particular calculation. If self-employed people are now to be included in the numbers of those employed and are therefore to affect the percentage of employed, is he satisfied that the present system properly reflects those who are out of work, bearing in mind the fact that employers now expect so many tradesmen to become self-employed before they will take them on? I think the figure is being distorted.

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness. The monthly claimant count is a count of all those who are claiming unemployment benefit or who, if unemployed and available for work, are claiming supplementary benefit. The employment statistics are the ones which we wish to ensure are correct. At the moment we only get those results either by the census, which is once in every three years, or by the labour force survey. I am looking to find ways of advancing the publication of the labour force survey so that we get a more up-to-date account of the number of employed people within the economy.

Lord Renton

My Lords, do those statistics sadly exclude briefless barristers?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, I will inquire.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, but on the—

Noble Lords

No, no! The next Question has been called.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, that was a—

Noble Lords

Order!

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