§ 3.8 p.m.
§ Lord AucklandMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what conclusions they have drawn from the BBC 1 television programme "Hospital Watch".
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Baroness Trumpington)My Lords, although Ministers never have time to watch television, I am told that this excellently made and interesting series of programmes gave a very good and true insight into the wonderful work being carried out in hospitals, not only in Portsmouth and the Wessex region but right across the country. It emphasised the dedication and skills of all the staff in the National Health Service who provide care and services to those of us who require treatment. The confidence that patients have in the National Health Service also came across strongly.
§ Lord AucklandMy Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for that helpful Answer. Will she not agree, whether she has seen the programme or not, that the BBC is to be congratulated on producing a programme with real nurses and real doctors taking part? Does she also agree that the programmes will be an enormous reassurance to those who have to enter hospital for an operation or for any other reason? Will she convey to her right honourable friend, when the next review body reports, the need for nursing sisters in particular to be remunerated more generously? Is she aware that in this programme there was a nursing sister who gave enormous reassurance to an old lady recovering from a corneal graft? Does not that, plus the very heavy pressure on the junior doctors, make the results of the next review body a most vital occasion?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I hope that the programme will have helped to ease many of the anxieties that people have about needing treatment in hospital. I am sure that it will have reassured them about the care that they can expect. With regard to the pay of nursing sisters, as for all NHS and midwifery staff, it is determined following the recommendations of an independent review body. The Government have made it clear that we shall implement review body reports except where there are clear and compelling reasons for not doing so.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that there is one small aggravation in the film which has grown enormously since, and which is causing grave concern not only to those who are sick but to the nurses themselves? Have we not now reached the appalling situation where, if a student nurse is successful in her examinations, becomes a state registered nurse or a state registered midwife and is living in what we call a nurses' home, she may get threatened with eviction? Does she not think that such practices ought to be looked at by her department?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, there has recently been a full debate in this House on nurses. There has been an equally full debate in another place. I would suggest to the noble Lord that I cannot go into such detailed information and perhaps he might turn to those two debates.
§ Baroness Masham of IltonMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether she is aware that one night during the programme there was an appeal for nurses because the hospital had a red alert because so many nurses and patients had 'flu? Are nurses offered 'flu vaccine and, if so, do they take it up?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, in a totally different context, I have been informed that 'flu vaccination is quite useless.
§ Lord EnnalsMy Lords, while I disagree with the last conclusion of the noble Baroness, and while I did not see the television programme to which the Question refers, I should like to ask whether the noble Baroness is aware that my own personal hospital watch last week was involved with the proposal to close Westminster Hospital. Will the noble Baroness assure her right honourable friend that any such move would be vigorously opposed in this House?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, that question of the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, is wide of the Question on the Order Paper.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, the noble Baroness has just made a very important statement about 'flu vaccine, which is widely advised by doctors. Is she now saying on behalf of Her Majesty's Government that the anti-'flu vaccine is ineffective?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonNo, my Lords. My statement came after having visited one of the government laboratories. They have for many years carried out experiments in a certain school, using 'flu vaccination. As your Lordships will be aware, the 'flu bug is of a different nature virtually every year, and therefore they informed me that vaccination against 'flu was a rather pointless operation.
§ Lord MarshMy Lords, does the noble Baroness not agree that her answer was wide of the original Question?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonWith gratitude, my Lords.
Lord Paget of NorthamptonMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the National Health Service has 1047 been giving me 'flu vaccine, in which, until I heard the noble Baroness, I had the utmost confidence?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I assume that the noble Lord is of the kind whom 'flu bugs do not love.
Lord WinstanleyMy Lords, while I am reassured to learn that Her Majesty's Government are listening to professional advice on 'flu vaccine—advice with which, I may say, I agree—may I express the hope that the Government will also listen to professional advice about the Pertussis vaccine?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I feel sure that the Government will listen.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that noble Lords and the House are aware that there are various strains of 'flu virus and that this fact is taken into account? Is she further aware that a newspaper today reports that her department is working on the vaccine for the coming winter? Will she make it clear to the House that she is not condemning the 'flu vaccine absolutely? Will she consider this matter again and come back to the House to make a full and clear statement to relieve public anxiety, which is bound to be awakened by what she has said today?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, of course I am not condemning any 'flu vaccine. Of course research is being done into 'flu vaccine; and I stand by what I was told. If I am informed afterwards and if I have in any way misled the House, I will most certainly make a statement.
§ Lord EnnalsMy Lords, can we get a little more clarification on this, because it was a very important statement that was made? Is it not the policy of the noble Baroness's department at this stage to ensure that certain categories of people who might be more in danger, including nurses and doctors, have 'flu vaccine available for them? If that is the policy, surely it must be thought by her department to be of some value.
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, that latter question, like the former question of the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, is wide of the original Question.
§ Lord Nugent of GuildfordMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the position is that the vaccine which is given every year is based on the virus which has attacked us the previous year—and usually two—but that this year particularly some new sub-type came into this country and we were vulnerable to it? I was one of the victims. Is my noble friend aware that normally the standard vaccine does give protection?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I am sorry that I have started such a hare, but I merely report what I have heard on my travels, which I take to be informed information. I will gladly come back, or perhaps in answer to a Written Question give the information. If I have given incorrect information, your Lordships can be sure that I shall be told so.
§ Lord AucklandMy Lords, reverting to the original Question, may I ask my noble friend the Minister 1048 whether she has had any contact with the regional health authority of the Portsmouth area in regard to this programme? If not, will she encourage her right honourable friend to obtain a report as to the happenings which were revealed about those particular hospitals?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I am told that the programme was very successful with regard to those particular hospitals. If for any reason the health authority wishes to approach either the BBC or the department, I feel sure it will.
§ Baroness Masham of IltonMy Lords, will the Minister read The Times of today, where an article refers to a vaccine from Russia which may cover all strains of 'flu?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, if I have time, I will gladly do so.
§ Lord Harmar-NichollsMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that no one who heard all the exchange during the past few minutes would think for one minute that she had made an official government statement on the question of the vaccine?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I hope I made it perfectly clear from the start that I was speaking as a result of a visit to a laboratory.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the House has a good deal of sympathy with her on this issue, but in view of the anxieties that have obviously been raised will she now give an undertaking to make a serious, considered statement to the House at the first available opportunity?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, if the usual channels wish me to do so—I believe that is the way I should answer—I will gladly do so.
§ Lord KinnairdMy Lords, is it not a perfectly clear case of many a true word being spoken in jest?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonNo, my Lords, I was not speaking in jest.