Nuclear Weapons Test Ban Treaty Negotiations (Hansard, 19 March 1986)

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)
My Lords, our view remains that a resumption of negotiations would be premature before progress has been made towards resolving outstanding issues, particularly verification.

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she is aware that I raise this issue for a second time this week because of its supreme importance? Does she not agree that a ban on nuclear weapons tests would be the greatest contribution towards ending the escalation and worsening of nuclear weapons? Is there not a danger that in view of the West's attitude the Soviet Union may not renew its unilateral decision not to carry out these nuclear weapons tests; and will the Government consider that, irrespective of any delay in a summit meeting, it might be possible to have a trilateral negotiation on this particular subject to prevent the acceleration of the arms race?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I am aware, of course, that the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, raised a very similar question on Monday. I have read both his Question and the answers which were given on that occasion. I am also aware of the sincerity with which he asks his questions and the strength of his feeling about the issue of nuclear testing. May I make it quite clear that the Government would also like to see progress made but, as I have said to him and as my noble friend Lord Trefgarne said to him on Monday, what is important is that we should be quite sure that we can have the tests verified. We are not sure that the verification is possible at this present time. Until it is, we cannot enter into something when it would be possible for one of the parties to the arrangement to cheat.

Lord Chelwood
My Lords, how does one reconcile what one hopes is a genuine desire on the part of Mr. Gorbachev to restart negotiations with the way in which he turned down out of hand at a few days' notice what seemed like an extremely important offer from President Reagan to share the latest American know-how on verification, which is surely the key to this question?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I very much appreciate the point my noble friend has raised in his supplementary question. Of course we welcome President Reagan's statement that if we are able to agree on verification proposals he is prepared to move forward on the ratification of both the threshold test ban treaty and the peaceful nuclear explosions treaty.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, would the noble Baroness agree, therefore, that we should give top priority to verification programmes? Can she say what funds we are applying to these programmes? Also, can she comment on what appears to be the new attitude of the Soviet Union towards verification and the offer of India and other countries to join in a programme of scrutiny and monitoring? Do Her Majesty's Government support that?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, if I may take first the last point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, the six-nation offer was made last October to set up monitoring stations on their territories as part of an international monitoring network, and it was not directed to the United Kingdom but towards the United States and the Soviet Union, immediately before the Geneva summit. But even with third party monitoring, we have some doubts that the testing moratorium would be adequately verifiable. Third parties could have a role to play in an adequate verification regime for a comprehensive test ban treaty; and of course these ideas could be pursued at the Committee on Disarmament.
On the other point the noble Lord raised, the recent proposals that were made by the Soviet Union in response to the American proposals are in fact a renewal of the moratorium. But of course it does not overcome the difficulties which we find in gestures of this type. The Soviet offer to exchange observers is on request only: it seems therefore that it is not the verification we require.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the implication of many of these questions is that somehow or other Britain is a warmongering nation and that Russia is a peace-loving nation and that because of our obstinacy we will not agree to what is regarded by Russia as a peace move? As she rightly refers to verification, would she kindly spell out what it is the Russians are objecting to in allowing so-called comprehensive test bans not being verified in a proper way? Is it not very clear that if they do not agree to verification of the kind that is simple and right then they are phoneys—that's all, just phoneys?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I agree with very much of the noble Lord's supplementary question. It is very important that we should find methods of verification I and that politically there should be the confidence to 965 believe in them. Unhappily, neither of those two exist at the present time although we wish that was in fact the case. What Mr. Gorbachev said before Christmas was an appeal to the United States to join the Soviet Union in a moratorium, but he said that any verification proposals would be dependent on a prior United States acceptance of a moratorium—and that of course would be something very difficult to accept.

§ Lord Boston of Faversham
My Lords, the Minister said these were matters which could be raised in Geneva. Would she say whether in fact they are going to be raised there? On President Reagan's recent invitation to the Soviet Union to view new verification procedures in Nevada next month, does she not feel that the very fact the President has issued that invitation is a further indication that there is overwhelming evidence that verification is no longer a problem and therefore there is no longer any reason to delay a resumption of talks for a comprehensive test ban treaty?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, we have welcomed the renewal of the United States invitation to the Soviet Union to send observers to Nevada. We regret that the Soviet reaction has reportedly, once again, been negative on that matter. Referring to the Conference on Disarmament, of course negotiations referring to that would be premature before progress has been made towards resolving all the outstanding issues, and especially verification. In answer to the earlier question, that is obviously a forum where matters of verification could be pursued.

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, could the noble Baroness say what the response of the Government has been to the offer of the Swedish and Indian Governments to help in the negotiations about verification?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I hoped I had given the Government's response when I answered an earlier supplementary question on the six-nation offer. The six nations are of course India, Sweden, Argentina, Tanzania, Greece and Mexico.