Unemployment: Hackney (Hansard, 18 March 1986)

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Secretary of State for Employment (Lord Young of Graffham)
My Lords, on 9th January 1986, the latest date for which figures by age and duration are available, the number of unemployed claimants aged 18 years and over in the London Borough of Hackney was 20,137. The number of unemployed claimants aged 16 to 19 was 2,474, and the number of claimants who had been unemployed for over 12 months was 9,743. The equivalent population figures are not available.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that partial reply. Is he aware that some of the figures he gave, and other figures that he did not give, have quadrupled since 1979 in an inner London borough which is part of the so-called prosperous South-East? These figures are as high as anywhere else in the country, or—dare I say it before the Minister does?—in France, Germany, Japan, Greece or Ireland. Is he also aware that as well as the generally high level of youth unemployment in Hackney, 20 per cent. of the youngsters have been unemployed for over a year and there is a real problem among the black and ethnic minority groups of unemployed youngsters? Will the Minister reconsider his decision not to include Hackney in his tour of visits to parts of the country to look at these problems? Will he accept an invitation to Hackney to see those problems and meet the people trying to deal with them, who would welcome a chance to discuss with him the problems in Hackney?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
Yes, my Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for pointing out that Hackney is an area of high unemployment. Although Hackney is in the South of England, it often seems to me that unemployment is not so much a North-South divide as an inner urban-suburban rural divide and there are many areas in the South which have high unemployment.
Visiting Hackney poses a small problem. Last October the leader of Hackney went on the radio and alleged that that rioting was caused, or was likely to be caused in Hackney, by unemployment of those between 14 and 19 years old. I replied that Hackney is in the centre of London, and, first, from 14 to 16 you are at school, and from 16 to 18, from next year onwards, you have the right to a two-year place on the YTS which will lead you towards real qualifications. That remains the issue.
Since then, there has been an effort by the leader of Hackney to get me to come down there in order to have some form of political confrontation. I spend 864 much of my time on those days when I am not in your Lordships' House travelling the country. I was in Cardiff yesterday before coming here to answer a Question. I was in Huddersfield, Wakefield and York on my way to Felixstowe at the weekend. In all those areas I was looking at unemployment. It is a large nation. We have many areas to look at, and I am concerned to do so. I will meet anyone who is interested genuinely to solve the unemployment problems of our youth and not to make short-term political capital out of them.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, in addition to the North-South divide which the noble Lord the Minister mentioned, is there not a black-white divide? Pursuing the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stallard, I ask the Minister whether he can give a breakdown of the total into the number of people from different ethnic groups who are unemployed. I suggest that that would show an enormous differential unemployment rate to the detriment of the black people in Hackney. When are the Government going to take new initiatives which will secure the racial equality in employment to which they pay lip service?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I resent the accusation about lip service, because it is not lip service. We are concerned to ensure that all our young have opportunities to get on in life. We have to look at the quality of education which many young people receive in the inner city areas; we have to take into account that many politically motivated people are concerned to prevent us even from taking stock of those of the ethnic minority who exist among the unemployed. I have had considerable difficulties in that regard. Without the information, it is extremely difficult to answer the supplementary question.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, does the Secretary of State not recall a couple of weeks ago saying in your Lordships' House in answer to a question that he would like to go and see the areas that were described as industrial deserts? On the figures that he has given, has he not described one of many such areas today? Will he try to oblige my noble friend Lord Stallard with his request to visit this area which is an industrial desert in London?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I was pointing out that there is an enormous difference between areas like Middlesbrough and Cleveland, where unemployment is very high and where the job opportunities are, alas, few, and Hackney, where unemployment is very high. I was making the point that it is situated in the middle of London where considerable job opportunities exist. I think that it is necessary and serious that we should go to investigate why these pockets of high unemployment should exist in areas where there are many job opportunities. It is a matter which concerns me and one which I shall happily look into, provided that no opportunity is taken merely to make political capital out of such a visit.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that he does neither himself nor the Government any good by accusing those who criticise 865 of trying to make cheap political points? Is he not aware that criticism of the Government's record has come from a number of sources, including the CBI, and also from the House of Commons Select Committee on Employment? Instead of accusing people of making cheap political points, will he take note of the criticism and act upon it to do something about bringing down unemployment, particularly for the 41 per cent. who have been unemployed for more than a year?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I often have opportunities to point out to the CBI and to your Lordships' House that it is not the Government who directly create jobs; it is the people. It is for the Government to do all they can in order to encourage those circumstances to come about. There is an enormous difference between a report of a Select Committee in the other place or a report of the CBI and those who seek to achieve political confrontation.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I travel through Hackney every day in order to come to your Lordships' House? Is he also aware that in connection with one of the previous local government Bills I, as president of the Association of Metropolitan Authorities, accompanied by my noble friend Lord Graham, spent a day visiting Hackney? I thought that I knew Hackney. When I saw the scale of deprivation I was staggered. It would do not only Hackney a world of good but the Minister, too, if he could do likewise.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I, too, am no stranger to Hackney. I pointed out to your Lordships' House that, for example, for adult training in Hackney we shall see an increase in the figures between this year and next year of no less than 226 per cent.; that is, from 370 to 1,200 in those who will be engaged in adult training. We are concerned to ensure that conditions improve in Hackney, but what I must repeat again and again to your Lordships is that Hackney is not an island; it exists in the whole of London. What we must do is ensure that the job opportunities that exist in the whole of London are available to those who reside in Hackney.

Lord Oram
My Lords, is it not suprising that the noble Lord was unable to give a population figure for a London borough? Will he not try again, more successfully, so as to give my noble friend Lord Stallard a fuller Answer than he was able to give him in the first place?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, among the many responsibilities I have for answering Questions in your Lordships' House, the census is not one of them. I can only give the figures I am given. I am told that no figure exists for the London borough of Hackney. I will inquire again. If it does exist, I will write to the noble Lord and have a copy of the letter placed in the Library.

§ Baroness Fisher of Rednal
My Lords, the noble Lord talks about helping the ethnic minorities and then he quotes the two-year training course, but is he 866 not aware that in the inner cities there is the greatest difficulty for these young people to get on YTS courses because in the main they are employer-led? When employers are choosing, for some reason or other, these are not the people who are chosen.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I am aware of the difficulty. That is why in many areas of the country there is an adequate supply of premium places which help schemes whether or not there are sufficient employers. What I am also aware of is that there are those who for political motivation or other causes go around telling young people that they are working for slave wages and that they should avoid YTS. They tell young people for sheer political reasons that they should not go on to a scheme; a scheme which I believe to be real and not only to be helping young people but to be thoroughly endorsed by the TUC and the CBI.

§ Baroness Fisher of Rednal
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I am involved in the city of Birmingham? I know the Handsworth project. I know the area well, and I take what he has said as a slight on what I am trying to do in my small way.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, let me say two things. First of all, as far as I am aware, Hackney is in London and not Birmingham, and I was referring to Hackney. Secondly, I am referring not to any Member of your Lordships' House but to those who, out of sheer political opportunism, are saying to young people directly, "Do not join YTS!" I see that there are those on the other side of the House who agree with me.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that young people will not be fooled by what they are told by people who have a political axe to grind? They will judge the scheme by what they find within the scheme and what it achieves for them. I hope that the noble Lord feels that his job is to ensure that the scheme is acceptable to young people and that it does them some good by providing them with jobs at the end of it.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord is correct. I find it slightly curious that in large areas of the country many young people willingly go on to YTS. It is only when we get to certain areas within the inner cities that we find these difficulties. In some areas that I look at many young people I meet say to me and to those who work in the scheme that they are entitled to more money. They do not take into account the real value of YTS to them and to the community as a whole.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, will the noble Lord accept that his reasons for declining the invitation to Hackney will not be welcomed by the voluntary workers and the local authority workers who are now working very hard to try to do something about the problems in that area? I understand that the latest invitation was sent to him by the chief executive, the Town Clerk, on 10th March. Again, can I ask him to reconsider that invitation in a positive manner so that he can see for himself rather than have to learn from hearsay what is going on in Hackney?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I have no doubt that the invitation which I received on Monday was totally unconnected with the noble Lord's Question. I shall consider it and see what can be done.