South Africa: Reform Proposals (Hansard, 12 March 1986)

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)
My Lords, we welcome the positive proposals in President Botha's speech and hope that they will be speedily implemented. We now wish to see further movement towards the fundamental elimination of apartheid and the beginning of peaceful dialogue between the South African Government and genuine representatives of the black community.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, does the noble Baroness recall that recently, in answer to a similar question, she described President Botha's speech as a significant statement of principles? In view of the fact that since that speech he has specifically denied that there will be any change to the registration of racial differentiation, to segregation in housing, education, 622 health, what principles do the Government see in this speech in regard to an ending of the system of apartheid?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, we believe that the speech was part of a process of reform and that it contained a significant statement of principles as well as positive steps for this parliamentary session, for example, the restoration of citizenship, the extension of freehold rights and the abolition of the discriminatory passbook system.

§ Lord Alport
My Lords, may I ask who my noble friend means when she talks of the "genuine representatives" of the black people?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I do not think it is for the British Government to say who should represent the South African blacks in negotiations with the Government.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, does the noble Baroness recall the details of the Commonwealth accord which was arrived at in Nassau six months ago and the provisions which were agreed by Her Majesty's Government with other Commonwealth governments? Does the noble Baroness recall that the accord said: It is our hope that the process and measures we have agreed upon will help to bring about concrete progress towards the objective stated above in six months' time"? Will the noble Baroness accept that the six months are now at an end? Are Her Majesty's Government satisfied that the provisions of the accord have been agreed? Does she not agree that President Botha's speech falls very far short of that? Will the noble Baroness say what the position is with regard to Mr. Nelson Mandela? Have Her Majesty's Government any information about the possibility of his release? What protestations are Her Majesty's Government making to South Africa about that?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, will know that the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting took place in October. The six months is therefore is not quite up. On the point about President Botha's speech, one fact that we can warmly welcome is the South African Government's decision to lift the state of emergency.
The noble Lord will know that following from the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting the Group of Eminent Persons was set up, and we believe that they are making a good start in their deliberations in South Africa. Finally, on the point about Mr. Nelson Mandela, we have called on a number of occasions for his unconditional release.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, will the Minister acknowledge the fact that the visit of Mr. Leutwiler representing the creditor bankers of South Africa, and the time limit that he has placed on rescheduling of South African debts, plus the decision of Barclays Bank to cease further investment in the area, is an important pressure in this direction?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, yes, it is an economic pressure.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, how can Her Majesty's Government be so certain that the release of Mr. Nelson Mandela without any strings attached whatsoever would not make matters worse rather than better?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, we believe that the release of Mr. Mandela would constitute a major act of national reconciliation in South Africa and could provide the impetus for a genuine dialogue.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, can the noble Baroness tell us who it is likely to conciliate? Is the noble Baroness aware that Nelson Mandela, basically upon his own confession, was found guilty of importing arms on a large scale to destroy the South African economy, and has frequently declared that if he is released he will continue that policy? If we are seriously opposed to terrorism do we really support the unconditional release of that sort of chap?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I have made plain the Government's position on this matter.

§ Lord Nugent of Guildford
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that we have had much experience in all parts of the world in dealing with problems—not quite as great as this but not far different? It is the first step to reconciliation for the existing rulers of the country to set up a dialogue with the accredited leaders of the native peoples concerned, and Mr. Mandela happens to be one of those. That is the first step which might make progress: if Mr. Botha would release him and start a dialogue with him.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that question.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, while we all welcome the end of the state of emergency, may I ask whether the noble Baroness is aware that the existing laws, for which there is no provision for change, give the South African police and security forces total power to detain without trial indefinitely and if necessary for life? Is the noble Baroness able to tell us what principle is involved in the restoration of citizenship which she mentioned, if that citizenship carries (as it does) no political rights whatever and does not allow citizens to exercise the vote? Are Her Majesty's Government prepared to accept those cosmetic modifications rather than the total destruction of the whole policy of racial discrimination?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that I prefaced my answer to his earlier question by saying that this was a process of change. We hope that there will be more change. The ending of the discriminatory basis for the carrying of identity documents removes an insult to the dignity of members of the black community.

§ Lord Alport
My Lords, does my noble friend include Mr. Nelson Mandela among the genuine leaders of the black people, including those who are associated with him in the movement of which at present he is the figurehead while still in prison?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I have said that we believe that the unconditional release of Nelson Mandela would in fact be a major act of national reconciliation. We believe that that could provide an opportunity for genuine dialogue and peaceful settlement in a very difficult political situation.