§ 2.52 p.m.
§ The Earl of KinnoullMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what safeguards have been instituted for British travellers flying on airlines operating Boeing 747s.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (The Earl of Caithness)My Lords, the Civil Aviation Authority, which is statutorily responsible for the safety of British airlines, is satisfied that the cracks recently discovered in the 398 structure of some older Boeing 747 aircraft are well within the structural capability of the aircraft and do not affect safe operation. The CAA has agreed with British Airways a programme of inspection and repair where necessary. Each aircraft takes about three to four days for the work and on all affected aircraft should be completed by mid-March. The safety of foreign airlines is the responsibility of their state of registry.
§ The Earl of KinnoullMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that reassuring Answer, and also for the information about the 15 British Airways 747s, which are subject to these tests, can he tell us whether, through the FAA (the international co-ordinating body, I understand, for all Boeings flying throughout the world) the test programme of other airlines flying into Britain is progressing as satisfactory as that of British Airways?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, it was agreed by the International Civil Aviation Organisation that member states of the Chicago convention would be responsible for their own safety standards and would be required to meet them. If a problem is found by a member state, it goes back to the state of origin which, in the case of Boeings, is America, and hence the involvement, as my noble friend says, of the FAA. Similarly, if the country of origin becomes aware of any problem, it will pass this information on to the operators. I believe that this arrangement is working satisfactorily, although I do not have any figures in connection with it.
§ The Earl of KinnoullMy Lords, will my noble friend also say whether other wide-bodied aircraft as well as 747s are being considered for similar tests?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, we are always on the look out for ways to improve safety. We have started with 747s. However, as all aircraft are regularly checked and monitored, if there are further developments we shall, of course, take them into account.
§ Lord UnderhillMy Lords, is the Minister aware that I share the concern of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, regarding international activity? Can the noble Earl assure the House that steps will be taken in the event of other states not carrying out similar inspection of their airlines?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, this is not the responsibility of this country. Clearly, under the agreement reached through the International Civil Aviation Organisation, which I have already mentioned, this is something that has to be dealt with directly by the country of origin of the aeroplane and the operators. The country of origin has the experts for that aeroplane. The cracks in the 747 were found for exactly that reason when Japan and Boeing engineers were working on the plane.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that that is not a very satisfactory reply? Is he not also aware that aircraft of other companies from other countries fly in and out of this country with 399 British passengers? To what extent are Her Majesty's Government making inquiries of other governments with airlines flying to this country as to whether they are taking the necessary action in respect of these aircraft? Can the noble Earl be a little more explicit? If he is unable to be more explicit, will he be good enough to convey the concern of this House to his right honourable friend?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, it is fair to say that I cannot be more explicit. This is a matter dealt with on an international basis between the country of origin of the plane and the operator. The members who are signatories to that undertaking have behaved, to my knowledge, responsibly in the past and, I understand, are behaving responsibly in this instance. I do not, however, have figures to help the noble Lord.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, surely the countries from which these planes emanate have some responsibility for the safety of their own nationals flying in them? Should they be warned, "Here is an airline that does not carry out the safeguards"? Is that not a necessary step?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, that would be a matter, I believe, for the country of origin and the aircraft's engineers. When one is dealing with specialised aircraft of this nature, it is common for the engineers from the country of origin to be present to supervise repairs and maintenance. If they are not made welcome, it soon becomes known that the member state concerned is not fulfilling its obligations.
§ Lord TordoffMy Lords, are we not perhaps in some confusion here over the use of the words "country of origin"? The noble Earl the Minister is presumably referring to the manufacturing country of origin whereas we, on this side of the House, are also referring, I believe, to the operators of the airlines. Is it not possible for the country of manufacturing origin to set out safety stipulations that are not carried out by user countries of origin? It is in the latter case that we should like to ask the noble Earl the Minister whether the Government can ensure that passengers from this country are warned against using airlines of those countries where the country of manufacturing origin may have given necessary safeguards but the user country is not following them up.
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, it would be an extremely difficult task to supervise every user country when one bears in mind that such cracks as have been discovered are likely to occur within the structural stability of a plane. If one was to follow this up for every single minute crack that occurs in all planes but is not to the detriment of safety, we would be taking the matter to an extreme. If a member state of the international organisation does not fufil its obligations, this soon becomes widely apparent.
§ Lord TordoffMy Lords, perhaps the Minister would like to tell us whether or not it would be a good idea if the Government recommended that people should fly the world's favourite airline?