HL Deb 30 June 1986 vol 477 cc669-72

8.32 p.m.

Lord Lyell rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 20th May be approved.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the provisions of this order generally provide a better and more comprehensive legislative framework for the existing Urban Development Grant and Environmental Improvement Schemes in Northern Ireland. The order is geared particularly to helping tackle some of the problems associated with areas of social need. It has three main purposes. The first is to extend the scope and forms of assistance which the Department of the Environment (Northern Ireland) may make available under the Urban Development Grant Scheme. The second purpose is to enable the department financially to assist schemes for the improvement of the environment under the Environmental Improvement Scheme. The third purpose is to give the department power itself to undertake schemes for the improvement of the environment under the Environ-mental Improvement Scheme.

The Urban Development Grant Scheme has been operating very successfully in Belfast and Londonderry since 1983. The purpose of the grant is generally to assist economic development and relieve social need by stimulating investment and revitalising run-down areas. The present statutory base for both the Urban Development Grant and Environmental Improvement Schemes is the Social Need (Grants) Act (NI) 1970. However, the 1970 Act has always been recognised as a stopgap measure. It was originally enacted to enable the former Ministry of Community Relations to grant-aid community centre provision and has proved inadequate as a means of tackling urban development.

The 1970 Act, for example, restricts assistance to grant aid; in certain instances, however, private sector projects ought to be triggered by other forms of assistance—for example, a loan or rent guarantee. Nor is there power under the Act to pay grants in advance of expenditure being incurred towards the establish-ment costs of voluntary environmental groups. While the Act permits the Department to grant aid environ-mental improvement works, it does not permit the department to itself undertake such works. The 1970 Act also lacks adequate powers to impose and enforce conditions attaching to offers of financial assistance. The proposed order therefore seeks to tackle these deficiencies and thereby place Northern Ireland on a similar footing to Great Britain.

I had intended to deal with some of the more detailed provisions of the order but perhaps it is the will of your Lordships that I should simply mention that Article 3 also gives the department powers to contribute to the advance funding of projects for any body or any individual undertaking certain categories of project which is of benefit to a district. Article 4 provides safeguards whereby the department can impose conditions in offers of assistance and may enforce and police such conditions. Articles 5, 6 and 7 I think are very detailed and if the noble Lord wishes to raise them I can certainly cover them.

Finally, my Lords, there are inevitably some differences arising from different structures of central and local government but we believe that the provisions of the order will generally provide Northern Ireland with a similar framework for tackling problems associated with areas of social need to that already available in Great Britain. I commend the order to the House.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 20th May be approved.—(Lord Lyell.)

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, I will be brief because this is a short order of only seven articles. I am grateful to the Minister for explaining its background and we hope that it will produce impressive results. However, I should like to suggest that there could be difficulties in interpreting two or three of the clauses.

The first problem is that the term "social need" is not defined. It is a wide expression and it does play a key role in this order. Unless there is evidence of social need, whatever that means, then the power to provide financial assistance will not arise.

Secondly, I wonder whether it is intended that a body corporate which has received financial advice under Article 3 should be beyond the reach of Article 4 which imposes a duty on a person who has received such assistance to furnish information and documents to satisfy the department that the conditions imposed at the time of giving the grant have been complied with. Article 4 contains no reference to a body corporate.

Thirdly, why should Article 3(2)(b) authorise the giving of financial assistance to a third party for the improvement of the environment, while under Article 5 the department reserves to itself the power to carry out works which contribute "directly or indirectly to the improvement of the environment"? Should not the order be applying the same criteria whether works are to be carried out by a person or a body under Article 3 or by the department under Article 5?

Lastly, the power to provide financial assistance is vested in the Department of the Environment. Assuming that that is constitutionally correct, at what level within the department will the decision be taken and will there be a right of appeal to the Secretary of State? Can the Minister answer these inquiries, either tonight or in the letter?

Lord Blease

My Lords, I shall not expect a reply from the Minister. He has been under tremendous pressure for the past hour and a half, but this is an important order to the people of Northern Ireland. First of all, I would like to welcome the main stated provisions and purposes as set out in Article 3. As I understand it, this article brings the law and the general provisions concerning urban development and environmental improvement work in Northern Ireland in line with he law and with similar provisions for Scotland, England and Wales.

However, I am concerned about the actual realisation of two matters raised by the order. The first matter is the possible efficacy of the 26 district councils in Northern Ireland in implementing the purpose of the order. The second concern is the actual resources which are available to undertake the purposes of the order.

As regards the present functional activities of the 26 district councils, may I ask the Minister whether effective administrative co-operation and participation of elected representatives in positive decision-making procedures is not a prerequisite for any effective working of the measures proposed in the order? In other words, I am saying that the Northern Ireland district councils are not working at the present time in any effective manner. If that is true, how do the Government propose to move forward on these social needs provisions?

With regard to the matter of actual resources, I welcome the stated intention of the Northern Ireland Department of the Environment as set out in Article 6 for the necessary studies, investigations and research which could forward the purposes of the order. However, as I understand it, no additional public expenditure or staffing arrangements are intended. How do the Government and the department propose to undertake the purposes of the order? How vigorously will the provisions of the order be promoted and activated, and also the enforcement and monitoring of approved work? I do not expect the Minister to reply this evening, but I should welcome a written reply. I hope that it will be more encouraging and perhaps more hopeful than I and others expect.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Prys-Davies and Lord Blease, for their forbearance. I am afraid that I shall have to write to the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, in respect of all his queries, apart from his thoughts on the area of social need. I am advised that there is no statutory definition of an area of social need in Northern Ireland or in Great Britain, where this phrase is used in the Inner Urban Areas Act 1978. We take it that an area of social need is generally recognised as one where deprivation is above the norm. An example would be an area of high unemployment, of poverty, of poor housing and environment, or where there are high demands on the social services or low educational achievement. The precise mix and combination of these factors may vary from area to area. The overall impact is such that what we call social need exists. I would stress that such deprivation is normally associated with urban areas. That is the matter with which we are dealing this evening.

I should like to write to the noble Lords, Lord Prys-Davies and Lord Blease. I have an answer in respect of district councils. It is, however, a little long. I do not think that I can precis it sufficiently. I should therefore like to deal with that in writing. With that and with apologies to the noble Lord, Lord Graham, and to all your Lordships, I commend this order.

On Question, Motion agreed to.