§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether assistance will be made available through the Department of Employment to the Restaurateurs' Association of Great Britain in their efforts to fill vacancies in the catering professions throughout the United Kingdom.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Lucas of Chilworth)My Lords, the public employment service has always sought to help the hotel and catering industry in common with all sectors of the economy to find the labour it needs. In addition, the training division of the Manpower Services Commission provides considerable financial support for the training effort to meet the future employment needs of the industry, notably through the YTS, and across the range of its adult training programmes.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that the Restaurateurs' Association has done a great deal itself in trying to attract people to the industry? It has been prepared to spend money and to hold all forms of display to encourage folk? All that I ask is that the Minister should be prepared to contact the association and perhaps offer it the assistance that it so richly deserves in providing employment for many people through the vacancies that it knows exist.
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, for his question. I can tell him that some £8 million is spent through the YTS scheme particularly in this sector of the industry. There are 46,000 students in non-advanced courses. Four universities and 15 polytechnics are providing degree and diploma courses. It might be of interest to your Lordships to know that my noble friend Lord Forte is chairman of the hotel management committee at Surrey University.
§ Lord AucklandMy Lords, is my noble friend aware of the enormous improvement in the standards of British catering? Is he also aware that I recently visited a YTS scheme in Peterborough and saw some of the youngsters in training for the catering industry. Can my noble friend give an assurance that everything will be done not only through the restaurateurs but also through the catering colleges and through hotels themselves to promote more employment for British cooks in particular?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend's first question. On the second point, I did not know that he had made the visit. As to his third question, I can confirm that some 2,500 people are undertaking occupational training in hotel and catering trades through the job training scheme. Some 1,850 occupational trainees are undergoing other training schemes and there are 300 trainees on small business courses. There are 22 nationwide centres to analyse training needs which will continue to be an important part of the work of the Manpower Services Commission.
§ Lord UnderhillMy Lords, will it interest the Minister to know that, through the kindness of my noble friend Lord Ponsonby, I have been pleasantly surprised, on looking through a brochure issued by the British Hotels Restaurants and Caterers Association, to find the vast number of people who are employed in this industry? It is most encouraging. Following the question of my noble friend Lord Molloy, can he indicate what is the proportion of vacancies and whether any vacancies might be due to inadequate conditions of work, particularly hours of work and wages?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, the number of employed people in this sector is increasing. There has been an increase of about 5 per cent. this year. Job centres were able to fill 65 per cent. of the 332,000 vacancies advertised last year. That is, I believe, quite a good record. As to conditions, in an analysis of people employed in the catering industry only 6 per cent. were found to be receiving wages below the agreed levels.
Lord Campbell of CroyMy Lords, is my noble friend rightly saying, in effect, to the restaurateurs that they should, in greater numbers, be booking the cooks?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I feel quite sure that the industry itself is extremely aware of the necessity to maintain and to improve high standards in kitchens and throughout the entire range of staff who serve in this industry, including receptionists, clerks and so on.
§ Lord MonsonMy Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the British catering trade would find it easier to recruit British staff if so many employers did not pursue a policy of actively cheating their employees? By cheating, I mean pocketing for themselves the 10, 12 or 15 per cent. service charge that the customer fondly imagines is destined for the employee. Can the noble Lord say whether Her Majesty's Government will legislate during the next Session of Parliament to put a stop to such abuses?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I rather resent the implication of the question of the noble Lord, Lord Monson. I can perhaps answer him best by saying that my middle son is engaged in this industry. It is something that we discuss from time to time at home. I do not believe from the evidence that I have that the practice is at all widespread. I can certainly assure your Lordships' House that we have no intention of legislating in this area.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, why should the noble Lord resent the question in any way? The noble Lord drew attention to a fact which, although it may not be widely prevalent, nevertheless exists. Surely, the noble Lord will agree that it is the business of Her Majesty's Government to check abuses of this kind where they exist? Even though they are in a minority, they undoubtedly do exist.
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I resent the question in that it implied—I think that it went further than an implication—that the hotel and catering industry cheat. I do not believe that they cheat.
§ Lord Harris of GreenwichMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he takes the view that if a restaurateur appropriates this money that is objectionable conduct? Is that his view or is it not?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, there are various arrangements in most catering establishments with regard to the disposal or disbursement of gratuities. Different establishments operate different schemes.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, will the noble Lord have the goodness to answer the question? Is it or is it not cheating when that happens!
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I do not know because I do not know the precise arrangements that operate in individual establishments. If the noble Lord opposite or the noble Lord, Lord Monson, has a specific instance, I should be pleased to look into it.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, will the Minister agree that whatever arrangements they have these transgress the Trade Descriptions Act.
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I do not know whether it is in breach. I should like to see precisely what the customer is being invited to pay for and whether that invitation makes clear what he is being invited to pay for.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords, will my noble friend agree—leaving aside the question of cheating which is perhaps an unfortunate and emotive term—that so far as this exists it is a thoroughly undesirable and somewhat unfair practice? Although no doubt one need not legislate, perhaps some means of ministerial disapproval in the form of an informal circular could be issued? That is if my noble friend the Minister is with me on the point I am making.
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, it is for the industry itself to regulate its own matters. As I have said, different practices occur in different establishments. I believe that the industry will be interested in the exchange of views and will take note of what noble Lords have said on this subject.
§ Lord SainsburyMy Lords, did I hear the Minister aright when he said that 6 per cent. of workers in catering were getting below wages council rates? If that is so, why are there fewer trading officers to police wages council rates to see that they are observed?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, the noble Lord heard me correctly. I said that in all wages council industries of all workers where pay was checked only 6 per cent. were found to be underpaid.
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, there is an inspectorate. It is the job of the inspectorate to establish those facts and take the appropriate measures.
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, perhaps the noble Lord can tell the House how the wages council Bill now before the House will help the catering trade and restaurateurs? Will he not also agree that because we have the Bill before the House at the moment this is a golden opportunity to do something within that Bill about gratuities and the 10 per cent.—or whatever it is—surcharge to bills?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, since the noble Lord rightly reminds me that the wages council Bill Committee stage is in your Lordships' House next week, no doubt noble Lords will take the advantage of raising that during that stage. I take note of what the noble Lord has to say.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he is prepared to consider, in relation to all aspects of the Question, whether an officer from his department could meet with a representative from the Restaurateurs' Association to examine everything that has been mentioned in the House today?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I am quite confident that if the industry wished to discuss any points with my right honourable and noble friends, or indeed my honourable friends in the department, such a meeting could probably be arranged.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, raised a point which the Minister has not answered. Will he say how the 6 per cent.—which he says is "only" 6 per cent.—compares with other industries?
§ Lord Lucas of ChilworthMy Lords, I said "all wages council industries". I did not select any particular sector. I am afraid therefore that I cannot divide that figure over all the wages council industries.