HL Deb 20 June 1986 vol 476 cc1168-70

11.22 a.m.

Lord Gainford

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether any county or regional councils have completed the process of tendering for uncommercial but socially necessary bus services under the provisions of the Transport Act 1985 and what savings have been made.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (The Earl of Caithness)

My Lords, I understand that the Highland Region in Scotland are the first local authority to have completed the tendering process, and that they have saved some £179,000 on their budget while maintaining the level of bus services in the area.

Lord Gainford

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Would not the case which he has mentioned help to scotch rumours that the public transport business will suffer from increased fares, loss of service and more redundancies?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I think that it is a little early to say because this is the first result that has come in as regards the tendering process, but I agree with my noble friend that it is certainly encouraging, especially when one bears in mind that it may have been thought that the Highland Region was not an area ideal for competition. However, even there most valuable savings have been made.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Earl will be pleased to know that I am grateful to him for suggesting that it is too early to make a final decision. Is the noble Earl not concerned about some of the reports which have already come forth about the failure of some of the commercial routes that have been taken over under the new process? I know that the noble Earl is aware of some of them because I sent him four examples from one local authority alone. Is there not concern about this matter? I believe that the last date for tendering for subsidised routes is 25th October, which is some way ahead. What will be the situation if, because of the unreliability of some of the so-called viable routes, councils do not have sufficient money to proceed with the tendering process for the subsidised routes? Will the Government ensure that that matter is given reconsideration?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I take note of the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, who very kindly sent me a letter yesterday enclosing some cuttings. I shall be replying to the noble Lord in detail. I entirely agree with him that poor service is to be regretted under any circumstances. I understand that the examples which he has referred to me are temporary difficulties which will be rectified soon.

Lord Shepherd

My Lords, will the noble Earl explain what he means when he says that services are being maintained? Does he mean the number of services or that they will operate with the same frequency in terms of the daily operation which was previously in being? Does he also mean the maintenance of early morning and late evening services, which were factors which caused considerable concern?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, as I understand it, there will be the same level of service in the respects which the noble Lord has mentioned as operated in the previous year. The level of service from August 1985 to August 1986 is also proposed for 1986–1987.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords will my noble friend convey congratulations to the Highland Regional Council for having been so expeditious in being first, as well as apparently effective in the way in which they have carried out the process? Will he convey congratulations to them from at least one Member of the House who is a resident in their area?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend's question, and I shall pass his comments on to the Highland Regional Council.

Lord Shepherd

My Lords, I was grateful to the noble Earl for his reply. However, I should like to know when he will be able to place before the House a full layout showing the way in which the tendering process has gone through; how much has been saved; and whether there are any anxieties within the counties as to the shortage of provision of services.

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I should think that it would be towards the end of October or beginning of November because, as the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, has reminded the House, the tendering processes will not be completed until the end of October, and therefore the information probably will not be available until then.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that there is considerable concern throughout rural Wales, which is an extensive area mainly dependent on bus services, about the possibilities of this problem? Will he recall the result of the pilot scheme in the trial area of Hereford, when the long-term effect was the net loss of 23 rural routes? Will he give us an assessment of the cutbacks on the rural routes when de-registration takes place on 26th January? Is he aware that I am deeply anxious that the Government's plans should be successful in the interests of the rural population? It would be helpful if the noble Earl could give us some projection.

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I am aware of the concern. Indeed, there was concern in the Highland Region, which, as the noble Lord will know, is a fairly rural area. There they have made a success of tendering and they have saved the ratepayers and the taxpayers money as a result. Now that the noble Lord has drawn my attention to the matter, I shall watch the situation in Wales and let him know in due course.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, would the noble Earl not agree that it would be quite horrific if in any service that was privatised there were no failures at all? Would that not prove that those services were being paid for at a grossly inappropriate and high rate? Is it not the case that what should happen is that a service should be paid for at a reasonable rate because then the weakest would go to the wall and, therefore, later on better services would be produced somewhat cheaper?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, it is not only in the private sector that one expects failures; one sees failures in the public sector, too. However, I do not think that the bus services in the last 30 years or so could be classed as anything like a success story. As bus travellers have halved, so subsidies have doubled in real terms in the last 10 years, and fares have increased some 35 per cent. more than inflation.