Residuary Bodies: Appointment of Women (Hansard, 10 June 1986)

§ Baroness Stedman
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Elton)
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment has no plans at present to make further appointments to the residuary bodies. However, if it becomes necessary or desirable to make additional appointments he will, as before, be guided by a person's suitability and availability. He will make no distinction between men and women for this purpose.

§ Baroness Stedman
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Does he recall that in a Written Answer he told me initially that 10 women were considered out of the 220 people who were considered for nomination, and appointments were made, as he said this afternoon, subject to availability and suitability? Is the Minister really suggesting that there are only 10 women in this country who might be considered for such a job, with all the expertise that we have among women in local government and ex-local government?
Is he also aware that I should have thought that Sections 85 and 86 of the Sex Discrimination Act placed a duty on Ministers to have regard to the appointment of women to public bodies? Was the Prime Minister consulted, because she is the person who, some years ago when the Equal Opportunities Commission published its report on women in public life, sent a message of congratulations and said that it was her wish that more women should be involved?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for drawing my attention to Section 6(1) of the Sex Discrimination Act, which is applied to Ministers by Section 85(1). I can confirm that we have not discriminated against women in the search for people to serve on these committees. I can confirm that we considered 220 names. Our search extended to the top ranks of public administration, the legal, surveying and planning professions and local business. The fact is that there were not enough names forthcoming to satisfy the criteria which the noble Baroness applies. I think that as the tone of public life and commercial life changes, it is a question of good women working their way through to the top and they have not all arrived there yet.

§ Baroness Phillips
My Lords, is the noble Lord the Minister aware of the effect of his reply on women's organisations? It is very disturbing that he has now said that there were not enough women of quality in commerce, industry and the professions to be considered. I wonder whether he has considered the effect it will have when people read that tomorrow.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I said that the numbers were not sufficient to satisfy the criteria of the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman. The Government welcome the success of women in all fields of life; and with such a leader, how could it be otherwise?

§ Baroness Faithfull
My Lords, does my noble friend really say that of the women who applied none was as capable, as sensitive and as intelligent as the men? I find it hard to believe.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, unlike my noble friend, I am not given to sweeping generalisations. I can only say that they were not as suitable as the men appointed.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, is the Minister aware that many people—and not only women—will find his remarks about good women finding their way to the top offensively patronising and that they will never do so as long as the Government set such a bad example?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the Government set a very good example by the composition and leadership of the Cabinet. I can say to the noble Lord that we also welcome the rise of good men to the top.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, in the list that the noble Lord gave us he did not mention the elected members of local authorities. There are a great many distinguished women on the local authorities. How many of the people who were doing the selection from this list and who made these sweeping judgments were women?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the approach to the elected members of local government was through the coordinating committees of the local authorities in each of the abolition areas. Each co-ordinating committee appointed one of its members to the residuary body. The Government had no control over the composition of those committees, which were appointed by the elected representatives themselves. Therefore I cannot comment on the balance of women and men on those committees.
As to the processes by which these names were arrived at, they were arrived at by the ordinary machinery of government which contains both men and women in both senior and junior ranks.

§ Lord Moyne
My Lords, will my noble friend not agree that the old conception of a statutory woman is really rather out of date and ought not to be gone back to, but that his approach of sympathetic treatment of women equally with men is what everybody wants?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for endorsing the precise policy that the Government follow.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that the bodies which have been abolished regularly included a very large number of capable women produced by the elective process? On consideration, is he not sorry that he abolished the elective process and thereby incurred the calumny which has fallen upon him this afternoon?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, as I was at pains to demonstrate, the elective process actually produced a member for each of these residuary bodies, and none of them was a woman.

§ Baroness Macleod of Borve
My Lords, my noble friend the Minister referred to a good woman. Just for clarification, can he tell us what is his definition of a good woman?

§ Lord Elton
The same, my Lords, for these purposes as of a good man, but rather more attractive.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, is the Minister aware that in a recent survey of 1,653 public bodies only 15 per cent. of the members were women, and of those chairing them only 6 per cent. were women? Does he not think that whoever compiles the list of the great and the good could have another go and try to get a few more women on it?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I shall be happy to pass on that sentiment, but the fact is that the Government are committed to encouraging the contribution of women to public life at a senior level and this is already done. It reflects the history of the past, but it takes time to achieve stature and experience in any profession. The tendency for women to take part in public life in this way is more recent than allows all of them to get there yet.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, is the Minister aware that many years ago we always said that a woman had to be a great deal better than a man to get equal consideration? Is he further aware that those of us who term ourselves progressive women hope that those times have passed? Will the Government do something about it?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords,I can confidently assert that those times are past, and there is nobody better fitted than the noble Baroness to remind us of what a very significant and constructive step was taken when your Lordships' House was strengthened by the recruitment of Life Baronesses.