Private Land: Trespass (Hansard, 6 June 1986)

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I must first apologise to your Lordships for the length of my Answer. We all witnessed with anger the suffering caused to Mr. Attwell when his land was occupied by the so-called peace convoy. It was a flagrant violation of the law of trespass. Mr. Attwell obtained a possession order and evicted the trespassers within a week. My noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor is considering whether the civil law procedures might be further streamlined in order to grant even more speedy recovery of the possession of land.
We are also considering whether the criminal law might have a stronger part to play. The powers now available to the police, for example to deal with breaches of the peace, criminal damage, and obstruction of the highway are wider than is often supposed. The Public Order Bill which will be debated by your Lordships next Friday will help by extending the public order offences of threatening behaviour and disorderly conduct to offences committed on private land. We are also discussing with the police and other interested parties what further steps might be taken to deal more effectively with the problems caused by the peace convoy; and whether any changes in the law are required.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, may I thank my noble friend for that full and helpful reply? May I ask him in relation to the kind of mischief referred to in the Question whether the Public Order Bill would not give us the soonest and best opportunity of introducing provisions relating to criminal trespass on land as well as dealing with other matters of public order which have arisen out of the extraordinary behaviour of this convoy?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, the law of trespass is a particularly difficult, complicated and sensitive area. I cannot say here and now that it would be suitable or proper for any changes to be made to the Public Order Bill as it is at the moment. There are strong arguments against making simple trespass a criminal offence. No one wants to criminalise the activities of groups of ramblers who stray from the footpath. However, we are discussing all these matters with, among others, the police, the National Farmers' Union and the Country Landowners' Association to ascertain whether some further strengthening of the law is required. If it is required, then we shall do our best to provide it.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is a fact that most British people who have seen the scenes on television have been absolutely sickened? It really is an impossible situation for the police and everybody concerned with this crowd of scruffy people, who do not pay taxes, or send their children to school, or do anything that is proper and decent. By the way, they do not look for work, either, which may interest the noble Lord who is seated beside the Minister. The fact is that the only way that this matter can be resolved, in fairness to the police, is to find a site where these people can legitimately stay and to say to them, "Go there and stay there. If you do not, we can do something about it". If we have nowhere to put them, what can they do but go from site to site and make things worse?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord has said and I am sure that the whole House will agree with at any rate the first part of his supplementary question. The problem of finding a permanent site is a very difficult one. It is the usual problem associated with this sort of situation. But I have heard what the noble Lord has said.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether any urgent consideration is being given to dealing with this matter, at any rate in part, through amendment to the Public Order Bill in view of the immense saving of time which would result if it could be dealt with in this way?

§ Viscount Davidson
Yes, my Lords. Consideration is being given to that but I cannot tell my noble friend the outcome at the moment. He will have read in the papers, no doubt, that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is considering how best to deal with all the problems arising from the so-called peace convoy—why the children are not attending school, the vehicle problem and all the others. I cannot go any further than that at the moment.

§ Lord Whaddon
My Lords, is the noble Lord satisfied that the police are adequately enforcing road safety and road worthiness requirements regarding the vehicles in this hippy convoy and that the drivers of ordinary vehicles are having their safety properly safeguarded?

§ Viscount Davidson
Yes, my Lords; we are satisfied that the police are doing as much as they possibly can in the circumstances. They can prosecute, and are prosecuting for construction and use offences in regard to vehicles; and in appropriate circumstances a power of arrest is available under Section 25 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind that the general impression given, certainly on the television and in the press, is that very, very few of the vehicles would pass an MOT test, many of them probably are not road licensed, and others may not carry the compulsory third party insurance? Surely action can be taken on these issues straight away by the police? Will my noble friend also bear in mind that most of us in this House used to see notices scattered around the countryside saying, "trespassers 1200 will be prosecuted"? Does not the forthcoming Public Order Bill provide an ideal opportunity for making that a reality?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I think we have all seen television reporting of the peace convoy. It may be quite different from what is actually happening. Sometimes the worst vehicles are shown. But I can assure my noble friend that the police are doing everything in their power to cope with the problem.

§ Lord John-Mackie
My Lords, as a farmer I would certainly hate the very thought of these people coming on to my farm without permission and doing the damage that they do. But these people have adopted the attitude, "Stop the world: I want to get off", and when one sees the conditions of the world today perhaps one cannot blame them. I have great sympathy therefore with what the noble Lord, Lord Mellish, was saying; that we really should try to find a place for them to go. In view of the situation in agriculture today where we are told to take land out of production, surely land is available all over the country to give them permanent sites?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I do not think there is any difference of opinion about this in the House. It is a matter of trying to find the right solution to all these problems, and that is what the Government are trying to do at the moment.

§ Lord Kinnaird
My Lords, in view of what the noble Lord opposite has just said about getting off the world, until their lot is rather more settled could they not just be put into orbit?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I am not sure that we could find a reliable rocket at the moment.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, the noble Viscount indicated that fresh legislation is contemplated but then dismissed the thought that it should appear in the Public Order Bill.

A noble Lord
No.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, I thought he said that but I see the Leader of House shaking his head wisely, or unwisely, as the case may be. Can the noble Viscount clarify matters? The position has been left in a state of some uncertainty at the moment, if I may say so.

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I am sure I did not say it would not be. I think it might be; but I cannot go any further than that at the moment. If inclusion in the Public Order Bill is proper and right we will certainly see that it is done.

§ Viscount Mersey
My Lords, surely the best place for these hippies to go is Gruinart Island in Scotland, which I believe has just been decontaminated of anthrax spores and in now habitable.

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I note what my noble friend says.

Lord Morris
My Lords, will my noble friend consider the very real problems of trespass in urban areas such as shopping malls where many shoppers are harassed in the common areas and the police have absolutely no power whatsoever to handle these problems?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I note what my noble friend says.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether it is a fact that many of these demonstrators are drawing unemployment pay and are obviously not available to accept any employment that might be offered to them—

A noble Lord
They are not looking for work.

§ Lord Leatherland
Ought not that aspect of the matter be reviewed?

§ Viscount Davidson
Yes, my Lords; it should be reviewed.