Labour Force Statistics (Hansard, 4 June 1986)

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, we estimate that the employed labour force increased by 283,000 men and 702,000 women between March 1983 and December 1985, a total of 985,000.
A full breakdown of the increase into full- and part-time jobs is not available, but figures from the labour force survey suggest that 57 per cent. of the increase for men between spring 1983 and spring 1985 was in full-time employment and 43 per cent. was in part-time employment. For women, 27 per cent. of the increase was full time and 73 per cent. was part time.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply to my Question. Although there is an overall increase in employment, is it not significant that the general trend in male full-time employment is downwards while it is upwards in female employment, in particular in part-time female employment? Have we not now a dual labour market where we have in work a small core of full-time highly-paid workers, generally men, and a growing periphery in the job market for low-paid female jobs? Should we not be concerned at the high social costs and the economic inequalities which are created by such a situation?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, we should be concerned with all aspects of the labour market. It is only right to point out that although the number of males in employment has gone down over the past two years, the number who are self-employed has risen strongly; therefore, the total number of men working is going up, not going down. Many in your Lordships' House tend, if I may say so, to look down a little on part-time jobs for women, but if we look at the survey, we find that 83 per cent. of women working part time were happy with the hours worked and, what is more, 30 per cent. of women working full time would prefer to work fewer hours.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, is it not the case that when the noble Lord quotes figures for the self-employed these are figures which are taken out of the air by the Government and have no sound statistical base?
Secondly, is it not the case, as has been shown by the figures given by the noble Lord, that when he talks about the 87 per cent. of the employed population whose standard of living is rising that is a false figure because many of the new jobs, particularly for women, are well below the average wage and some of them are below half the average wage?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, perhaps I may say on behalf of the Government's statistical service how much we resent the imputation that Government figures that are issued are taken out of the air. These are official Government figures from the statistical service. They are not manufactured by me or by any of my colleagues, and on behalf of my statisticians I must register that point.
Secondly, I should be happy to show the noble Lord the position. He is accusing me of the same thing of which I was accused in another place only yesterday—that I have got the figures entirely wrong and that in any event the bottom decile, the lowest 10 per cent., had not gone up but had gone down. I have checked on this figure and I am sorry to tell Mr. Roy Hattersley, who accused me yesterday of a variety of different things—ignorance, callousness, cynicism and stupidity—that he was the one who was wrong, and as for the others, let the two judge between us.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, will the Minister kindly tell the House what was the survey to which he referred which said that 83 per cent. of women in part-time work were satisfied with their employment? What was the survey—because that could not be a statistical figure but merely the result of a survey?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, a survey is the way by which most of these figures are arrived at. The figure is from a publication called Women in Employment, from the Office of Population, Census and Surveys, dated 1981. It was the last survey taken on this matter. These are the surveys that come through.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, when the Minister responsible for Northern Ireland was answering questions on unemployment last week I asked him whether he would be good enough to convey to the noble Lord the fact that there were many technological, technical and scientific institutions which sincerely believe that they can put proposals to Her Majesty's Government to increase jobs for men and women. They would not necessarily reduce unemployment, but would increase jobs; there is a slight difference. Will the Secretary of State say whether he has had time to study the suggestion that was put to his noble friend?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
No, my Lords; but I shall certainly study it.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, will the noble Lord bear in mind the importance of the answer he gave to my supplementary question—that the survey was last taken five years ago, in 1981? It therefore takes no account of the huge increase in part-time employment to which he referred earlier.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, many of these surveys take some time to prepare before they come out. If the noble Lord looks at the whole field of population census and surveys, he will see that that is the case with many of them. I shall certainly have a look, but attitudes change remarkably slowly in these fields.

§ Baroness Lockwood
My Lords, would the noble Lord the Minister agree that there are a great many women who would prefer part-time employment because of their domestic commitments, but that they would also prefer to have the terms and conditions of that employment pro rata with those who are on full employment terms? Would he also agree that this does not apply in the majority of cases but in only a very small minority of cases?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I am afraid that I am quite unable to answer that supplementary question for the simple reason that conditions of employment are freely negotiated between people. My concern is to see that as many people as possible get jobs. The one way, I suggest, by which we shall reduce the number of jobs is by laying down external conditions of employment.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I cast no aspersions at all on his statisticians? But is it not the case that when the Government calculate the numbers of self-employed, they estimate—they have no firm figures on which to base the calculation—and that frequently they have to readjust those figures at a later date? On the second part of my question—and the noble Lord did not answer that question—is it not the case that a large number of the new jobs that he claims to be creating are ones where the wages are well below the average wage, and that the number of employed people below that average wage is increasing, has increased since this Government came to power, and shows no sign of decreasing?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, the figures on self-employment came out as a result of the labour force survey. It is a survey of 60,000 homes. It is issued by the Government statisticians. It is a survey. The figures do not come out of thin air. Secondly, of course in any average wage there must be as much below as above because that is the definition of an average. What I can tell you is that the average wage in this country has been rising strongly and rising above the rate of inflation.