HL Deb 30 July 1986 vol 479 cc831-3

2.58 p.m.

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what has been the yearly cost of the Plant Breeding Institute in the last five years, and how much surplus the National Seed Development Organisation had in the same period.

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, in each case the figures I give are millions of pounds and relate to the five-year period 1980–81 to 1984–85. Plant Breeding Institute: 3.3, 3.4, 3.4, 3.6, 3.2. Those figures represent the total cash grants made to the institute by the Agricultural and Food Research Council from the public funds received from the Science Budget and from the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for commissioned work.

National Seed Development Organisation: 0.9, 1.0, 0.9, 0.8, 1.8. Those figures represent NSDO's profit after deduction of tax and of royalties paid to the Exchequer, before payment of dividend.

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords, I thank the Minister for those figures. Is he aware that the Government's reasons for—and I paraphrase—transferring these two bodies to the private sector are to ensure the maximum benefit to agriculture and the United Kingdom economy? Is the Minister aware that the PBI has produced seed that is now growing 80 per cent. of the wheat in this country and 22 per cent. of the potatoes? Does he think that a private company in the past has anywhere near matched those figures, or is likely to match them in the future?

Does he not think that the PBI should be left alone in view of these figures, especially as it is making a profit?

Is it correct that the noble Earl's figures for the NSDO do not include—at least I had this answer from his noble friend a few years ago on this subject—various royalties, which add up to a considerable amount?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, both I and my noble friend Lord Belstead have been over this ground a number of times with the noble Lord. I think that this is a matter, whatever answer I give to the noble Lord, on which he will have his opinion and the Government will have theirs. I see no way that I can convince him. The Government's policy in this area is to promote the fullest possible industrial and commercial exploitation of scientific discoveries. Despite past successes, which the noble Lord rightly mentioned, the Government believe that the private sector is best placed to commercialise the highly successful applied work at the PBI, which is carried out in part of the institute only.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, can the noble Earl give us some instances where the private breeders—and there are plenty in this country—have come near the record of the Plant Breeding Institute in the production of new wheats, new potatoes and other plants?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I should be delighted to write to the noble Lord with that informa-tion.

Baroness Nicol

My Lords, can the noble Earl assure the House that in view of Sir Francis Pemberton's recent decision not to renew the lease on his 70 acres of the PBI site because he wanted it for commercial development, the new owners will be asked to give an undertaking that their part of the site will not be sold for commercial development?

The Earl of Swinton

Yes, my Lords, I can indeed give the noble Baroness that undertaking. That is something we intend to do.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, will the noble Earl confirm that the Agriculture and Food Research Council are extremely concerned about the Government's policy of privatising these two successful and important organisations? Will he say what consultations have taken place with the AFRC and what their reaction is?

Secondly, can he say how an organisation such as the Welsh plant breeding station in Aberystwyth will market and develop the seeds after this transfer has taken place? Is it not the case that there is a considerable danger that important and successful —and I mean successful in international terms and in relation to the third world—institutes will have to be closed in England, Scotland and Wales?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, so far as concerns the AFRC, certainly the officials I have met seem to be very happy with this idea. In regard to the future marketing of varieties produced in Wales and in other centres, we shall be considering with the AFRC the appropriate arrangements for the commercialisation of future varieties at other institutes.

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl, as we know that he has a report from Lazard on the situation, whether Lazard's figures agree with the figures he gave me a few moments ago?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, the Lazard figures are very confidential and in current negotiations, and I could not quote anything from them.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, can the noble Earl say whether, if the Plant Breeding Institute is sold to a chemical firm, which is one of the possibilities, he thinks that they will be absolutely impartial in the selection of disease-free wheats, or perhaps whether they might be biased in favour of those which respond to chemicals?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, that is a rather hypothetical question. There are a number of institutes and people involved in this matter, and these are the kinds of details we shall have to go into with them.