HL Deb 29 July 1986 vol 479 cc716-9

2.32 p.m.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made in international arrangements to rationalise fisheries in the seas around the Falkland Islands in order to conserve stocks of fish.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)

My Lords, pending agreement on a multilateral conservation and management regime under FAO auspices, voluntary restraint arrangements were made with the nations principally fishing for squid. International recognition of the need for conservation has grown. Meanwhile, the FAO study, an essential preliminary for negotiations in a multilateral regime, has made progress. The first draft is expected in the autumn.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her reply. It is disappointing that little progress appears to have been made. For more than a year now, my noble friend has had to give more or less the same reply. Will the Government now try to accelerate the proceedings or take another initiative? Fishing fleets of many other nations have been sailing long distances to plunder the riches of those seas without any control. Even Argentina now appears to have reached agreement with the Soviet Union and Japan. Unless some action is taken soon, there will be few fish left to protect.

Baroness Young

My Lords, my noble friend asked a number of questions which I realise are of interest not only to him but to many of your Lordships. We are actively continuing our efforts to achieve any early discussion and agreement on a multilateral regime. We are expecting the technical study under FAO auspices this autumn. We have also considered measures to prevent overfishing and we reached voluntary restraint agreements this season which protected the fisheries.

On my noble friend's last point about whether we should take other measures—by implication, impose a unilateral exclusive fishing limit—we retain that right. We believe that it is best to work for the establishment of an effective conservation management regime in the south-west Atlantic and for the widest possible measure of international support.

Lord Shackleton

My Lords, I acknowledge the patience that the Government have shown, but does the Minister now realise that the propects of reaching a multinational agreement have practically disappeared? Is she aware that an exclusive agreement has been initialled between the Argentine and the Soviet Union which will bring the Soviet Union into bases in the Antarctic? Is the matter not now so serious that the Government should apply customary law and extend fishing rights at least to within the exclusion zone? Does the noble Baronesss recognise that a dangerous situation exists?

Baroness Young

My Lords, of course I take note of what the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, has said. It is true that a bilateral agreement on fisheries was initial-led by the governments of Argentina and the Soviet Union earlier this month. I think that it is unfair and untrue to say that we have done nothing, because we are still waiting for the FAO study, which I think will be valuable and wil tell us what is happening as opposed to what people assume is happening.

Lord Harmar-Nieholls

My Lords—

Lord Kennet

My Lords—

Lord Denham

My Lords, I think that it is usual to alternate between the two sides of the House during Question Time. Of course the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, has the right to speak next.

Lord Harmar-Nicholls

My Lords, will my noble friend tell the House what British representation there is on the FAO investigatory team? Are they putting on pressure to see that all the facts that concern this country will be taken into account?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the FAO study is a technical study to which we have indirectly made an input on this matter. The study is supported and accepted by all the nations involved in fisheries in the south-west Atlantic and contributions are being made by all the nations. I think that it will give us a good basis for knowing what is happening to the fish stocks in that part of the world.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, what is the Government's opinion of the new Argentine-Soviet agreement under which 10 per cent. of the crews of Soviet fishing boats will be Argentine nationals; every Soviet fishing boat will have an Argentine Government official on board; and, according to the designation of sea areas by the Argentine Government, Soviet fishing boats will be entitled to fish within our exclusion zone? Have the Government not accepted the four-year delay in achieving an international regime in the hope of excluding the Soviet Union from those fisheries? Have they not now delayed so long that they are getting not only the Soviet Union but boats of the Soviet Union with Argentine officials on board? Did they talk to Mr. Shevardnadze about that matter when he was here this month?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the answer to the last point is, yes, this matter was raised with Mr. Shevardnadze when he was in London. On the first point that the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, raised, it is, of course, a protection zone and not an exclusion zone that we are talking about, and only Argentine warships and military aircraft are excluded from the zone. It has always been possible for Argentine fishing vessels to enter it. They have had to ask permission to do so. but there is no reason for thinking that they would not be given that permission if they so wished. Peaceful activities by Soviet fishing vessels and Argentine fishing vessels pose no threat to the security of the islands. By definition, therefore, the actual crew is not a major consideration in this matter.

Lord Orr-Ewing

My Lords, can my noble friend say whether maritime aircraft deployed in the area are keeping a careful survey of the ships being deployed in fishing not only outside the exclusion zone but inside the zone? Is this not preparatory to showing how outrageous it is that everyone is now poaching fish in this area to the great disadvantage of the future fish stocks of that zone?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the answer is, of course, that the protection zone is covered by aircraft, and an account is taken of ships in the zone. The answer to the second point, as I have already indicated, is that we shall not be clear about the full picture until we get the FAO study in the autumn. Preliminary indications are that while one of the main species of squid has come under heavy pressure, the other squid species and the main species of fin fish appear to be holding up well.

Lord Gladwyn

My Lords, is it not probable that progress in this important direction would be much more likely if the Government now agreed to negotiate with the Argentine Government on all outstanding points including not necessarily the vexed question of sovereignty but at any rate the political future of the islands?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that we should like very much to have better relations with Argentina and to negotiate many matters with that country. What we have said is that we are not prepared to negotiate sovereignty.

Lord Shackleton

My Lords, does the noble Baroness really believe in the FAO solution? She will acknowledge that I have not harassed her on this subject in the past. Does she recall that the head of the Argentine foreign affairs committee in the Argentine Senate has said that they will never sign a multi- national agreement and that an attempt to drag in sovereignty, as the noble Lord has just done, is quite disastrous to the peace of the South Atlantic? Will the noble Baroness now consider whether we should not apply customary law and extend fishing rights to the limit of the zone that we have declared?

Baroness Young

My Lords, we retain this right. Our aim is the establishment of an effective conservation and management regime in the south-west Atlantic. I believe, however, that we still need to look at establishing workable arrangements for fisheries conservation and management in the south-west Atlantic. The disposition of fish stocks makes it strongly preferable to apply conservation measures over a wide area of the south-west Atlantic extending beyond the waters around the Falklands. It is an international issue, and we believe that it requires an international solution.

Baroness Nicol

My Lords, is the Minister aware that squid and fin fish are being fished up to the limit of sustainable yield and that urgent action is necessary? Is she aware that it is not possible to go on waiting? Will the Minister not consider that a straight-forward licensing system could be applied? Is she aware that the Poles and the Japanese would certainly find this acceptable?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I am well aware of the point that the noble Baroness makes. Pressure on the fishery makes it all the more important that we should secure a multilateral regime. In the meantime, we have negotiated with some of the principal fishing nations voluntary restraint arrangements that have operated during the last fishing season. These have helped, I believe, to reduce the threat. I accept, however, that they cannot be a long-term solution.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, I apologise for prolonging this exchange. Can the noble Baroness say whether the USSR is a party to the FAO study? Secondly, what arrangements are being made to establish a schedule of talks immediately on publica-tion of the report?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the USSR has agreed to take part in the FAO study and to contribute to finding out what the case is. Of course, once we get that study, we shall have to look rapidly at the next phase, which will be some agreement.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, should we not really be pressing for arrangements for talks now and not waiting until publication?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I believe there is no doubt that all the countries fishing in this part of the world are very well aware of the British position on the matter and of the importance that we attach to reaching a solution. I am certain that the remarks made in your Lordships' House today will not be lost on other countries.