HL Deb 22 July 1986 vol 479 cc116-9

2.55 p.m.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, at the request of my noble friend Lord Molloy, and with the leave of the House, may I beg leave to ask the Question standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Molloy?

The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans will be developed during the British Presidency of the Council of the EC to help to end the occupation of Afghanistan and the occupied sections of the Middle East countries.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)

My Lords, during our Presidency we shall continue to support the efforts of the United Nations Secretary General to secure a settlement in Afghanistan on the basis of successive United Nations resolutions calling for the withdrawal of Soviet troops. We shall continue also to promote peaceful solutions to the problems of the Middle East and a withdrawal of unauthorised foreign forces, in accordance with the relevant UN resolutions.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, with regard to the first part of the Question, can the noble Baroness tell the House whether any discussion on this matter took place during the Soviet Foreign Secretary's recent visit? On the second part of the Question, can she say whether the Government will be observing the progress of the new attempt at a settlement in the Middle East which is demonstrated by the visit to Morocco of the. Prime Minister of Israel?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the answer to the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary question is, yes, both my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary raised the subject of Afghanistan with Mr. Shevardnadze. Regrettably, he indicated no change in the Soviet position on Afghanistan. With regard to the noble Lord's second supplementary question, we of course welcome all initiatives to encourage discussion and dialogue on the Middle East. We remain convinced that the region's problems can be solved only by negotiation. It is of course too early to evaluate the effect of the visit to Morocco of the Israeli Prime Minister.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, does the noble Baroness recollect that about five or six weeks ago we were told that the United Nations talks, under the chairmanship of Mr. Cordoves, were making good progress? Can she say what has happened to those talks? Her reply just now was not too encouraging. Have the talks come to a halt, or are they unsatisfactory? What steps are Her Majesty's Government taking to encourage them?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the position is that the talks continue. The United Kingdom supports the effort of Mr. Cordoves to find a settlement along the lines of the United Nations resolution which calls for an immediate withdrawal of foreign troops, the return of refugees, self-determination for the Afghan people, and the restoration of Afghanistan's independence and non-aligned status. Perhaps I may add to what I said about the discussions with Mr. Shevardnadze. Mr. Gorbachev has said that he wants to withdraw Soviet troops, but we want him to translate his words into reality. There is no obstacle to his doing so. Troop withdrawal is the real test of Soviet commitment to negotiations and the key to a peaceful solution to this problem.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, I sympathise with what the noble Baroness has just said. Will she deal with the talks over which Mr. Cordoves was presiding? Are they continuing, or have they come to a halt?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I am sorry if I did not make that part of my reply plain: the talks continue. Of course they do not go on all the time. The key obstacle to a solution is the question of the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan.

Lord Gladwyn

My Lords, do the Government agree that the only sensible way to end the war between Iraq and Iran, which otherwise may go on for ever, to say nothing of the Palestinian problem, would be for the two super powers jointly to summon a conference on Middle Eastern affairs generally? That would mean accepting that the Soviet Union had at least a role to play in Middle Eastern affairs. If that is not possible at the moment, and it is not likely to be possible until the end of the Russian occupation of Afghanistan, will the Government say that they approve in principle of such a development, which I need hardly say is welcomed by Mr. Gorbachev?

Baroness Young

My Lords, on the first part of the noble Lord's question, again, the Soviet proposals for a Middle East conference were discussed with Mr. Shevardnadze when he was in London. We have no objections to the principle of an international peace conference or indeed a preparatory meeting, as has been proposed by the Russians, but the timing is crucial and neither can be effective if the parties are not ready to make them work. We are not at all certain that the gap between the parties has yet narrowed sufficiently to make that possible. On the noble Lord's second point about Afghanistan, I think that I have made the Government's position clear.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, although I am glad to note that the noble Baroness has taken heed of the wishes of Mr. Gorbachev to withdraw from Afghanistan, may I ask her whether she will use all the diplomatic experience of the Foreign Office to make it as easy as possible for the Russians to withdraw from Afghanistan, considering that our Foreign Office has such a long history of such behind-the-scenes negotiations?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I am delighted to hear that the noble Lord holds the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in such high regard. I shall pass that on, and I am sure that it will be pleased to hear it. We have done our best to help with a solution on Afghanistan. We are not of course directly a party to the talks. We hope very much that a solution will be found, but, as the noble Lord rightly says, the key is the withdrawal of Soviet troops.

Lord Mellish

My Lords, could not the outrageous invasion of Afghanistan by a foreign power be solved if the Russians were so minded? All the guff about United Nations resolutions and the rest means nothing at all if the Russians are determined to stay there. To any idea that somehow it is rather difficult for them, my response is "So what!". Let them get out; they should not have gone in there in the first place.

Baroness Young

My Lords, as always, the noble Lord puts plainly what I think everybody believes. The Soviet troops should not be in Afghanistan, and there are now about 120,000 of them there. But when the matter has been raised at the United Nations each year there has been an overwhelming vote in support of the principle that the Russian troops should be withdrawn and that there should be a political settlement.