Foreign Secretary: South African Visit (Hansard, 11 July 1986)

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Foreign Secretary has any plans to visit South Africa.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, my right honourable and learned friend the Foreign Secretary is currently visiting Southern Africa in pursuit of the mission entrusted to him by the European Council. He expects to pay a visit to South Africa later this month.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply. Is the noble Baroness aware that, according to press reports today in The Times and the Financial Times, there is now a grave likelihood that, if no substantial advances are made by President Botha, the USA and the EC will be prepared to support Sir Geoffrey Howe in any further economic measures that he might recommend, and that India, Canada and Australia as well as black Commonwealth countries will also support our Foreign Secretary if he makes a suggestion for further economic measures if nothing is forthcoming from his meetings with President Botha?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I am of course aware of the press reports to which the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, refers. My right honourable and learned friend is undertaking this mission in his capacity as president of the Council of Ministers in Europe. He goes on behalf of the 12 countries and with their full support, and we hope that he will make progress in his mission. I would not wish to comment on a hypothetical situation.

The Lord Bishop of Manchester
My Lords, can the Mnister tell us whether the Government have taken note of the very strong resolution by the Church of England General Synod at its meeting on Monday about the need for strong economic measures against South Africa in the present crisis by this and other countries, and of that as an expression of opinion among the Churches and among the people in Britain at the present time?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, yes, I am aware of the statement to which the right reverend Prelate refers. I would say to him and to his colleagues that the heads of Government of the 12 countries of the Community agreed on the urgent need for a genuine national 582 dialogue on the future of South Africa. The mission that my right honourable and learned friend is undertaking is a further effort to establish conditions in which dialogue can commence. I would hope that he and his colleagues believe that dialogue, in this difficult situation, is the most important thing to undertake to get both a suspension of violence and an ending of apartheid.

§ Lord Boston of Faversham
My Lords, would the Minister accept that many people, both in your Lordships' House and elsewhere, will hope for the success of the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary's visit to South Africa? Would she also agree that there was a great deal of common sense in what was said last night and this morning by Mr. Leon Brittan, and that it is right that in the event of a failure of Sir Geoffrey's visit the inevitable need for stronger economic measures must be brought home to the South Africans? That need not be said in the form of a threat, but as a matter of practical realism, and surely the South Africans would at least respond to that? Indeed, that was a conclusion to which the Eminent Persons' Group found themselves inevitably driven.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his first remarks on his wish and that of his noble friends that my right honourable and learned friend will be successful in his mission. One of the objectives of his mission is to see whether or not a dialogue is going to be possible, and to make quite sure that there is no misunderstanding about the British Government's position, both in our condemnation of apartheid and in our wish to see a suspension of violence. We wish to achieve these things, if we can, by dialogue. I have noted the other points that the noble Lord made, but we must hope for progress in this mission before commenting on what might or might not be its outcome.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, I noted that the noble Baroness referred to the fact that the Foreign Secretary would put forward the British Government's view. Will he also be emphasising the view of the Community Ministers?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, yes, because, as I said at the beginning, it is important to recognise that he is speaking on behalf of the 12 countries of the Community, and with their full support.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that Mrs. Helen Suzman, Mr. Colin Eglin of the Progressive Federal Party, and Mr. Gavin Relly, among others, all of whom know South Africa a great deal better than does the General Synod of the Church of England, are unanimously of the opinion that economic sanctions would be disastrous for everybody in South Africa, of all races?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, yes, we are well aware of the views of Mrs. Suzman and others who have spoken out against sanctions, economic measures, against South Africa. I have made clear our own Government's concern over the dangers of economic measures and of their effects on the black population in South Africa just as much as on the white.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, would my noble friend remind the right reverend Prelate, with his reference to the decisions of the General Synod, of the quotation from Holy Writ to the effect that the children of this world are wiser in their generation than the children of light?

The Lord Bishop of Manchester
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware—

Noble Lords
Let her answer.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I am not sure at this point that it is necessary for me to remind the right reverend Prelate of that quotation, as my noble friend seems to have done so.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, regarding the attitude taken by some people that sanctions would hurt the black folk in Africa, is the noble Baroness not aware that many people believe that if France, Belgium and other occupied countries under Nazi-ism, which suffered our bombing and the invasion, had taken the same view we probably would not have won the war? Why is it that we feel that black people have not got the same courage as Europeans? Finally, would the noble Baroness not agree that the statements made by the Prime Ministers of India, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are in no way hypothetical instances? Will she state to this House now that the Government of this country will support those Prime Ministers and the black Prime Ministers in their endeavours to bring apartheid to an end?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I am not sure that I follow the sequence of thought of the noble Lord, Lord Molloy. I have attempted in my answers to set out the Government's position on these difficult issues.

§ Lord Gladwyn
My Lords, would the Government agree that partial sanctions are unlikely to be effective, and that only universal sanctions will ever have the required effect?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, we all heard with great interest what the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, had to say from his experience in the Foreign Office when sanctions were applied—I think Abyssinia was the first example—and were found to be quite ineffective. What my right honourable and learned friend is attempting to do, speaking as the President of the European Council, is of course to get into a dialogue with these countries. That is why he is meeting both the Front Line states and the South African Government.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, it is no secret that the mission of the Foreign Secretary was thrust on the EC by the British Prime Minister. When Sir Geoffrey Howe says that this is a last effort to get conciliation, to get arbitration and negotiation, does the noble Baroness recall that it was stated that President Botha's speech last August was the last chance, that the EC meeting in September was the last chance and that the formation of the Eminent Persons' Group at Nassau was the last chance? How many last chances do this Government intend to put forward before they 584 face up to the fact stated by the Eminent Persons' Group that the South African regime has no intention whatever of getting rid of white supremacy?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, all that the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, has said is that in public life and in important and difficult issues it takes a long time to reach solutions. But one of the facts in this case is that the South African Government have taken a series of steps to end apartheid. They may not have gone as far or as fast as we should like, but they have made progress, and in all of this that should not be forgotten.

§ Lord Mowbray and Stourton
My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that if the Christian Church did not teach that God gives us all a last chance after we have sinned the last time, there would not be much hope for any of us?