South Africa (Hansard, 7 July 1986)

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat the Answer which has been given by my right honourable and learned friend the Foreign Secretary to a Private Notice Question in another place on South Africa. The Answer is as follows:
20 "I intend to make an early start on the mission entrusted to me at the recent European Council Meeting in the Hague. I accordingly proposed last week to the governments of Zambia, Zimbabwe and South Africa that I should visit them in the period 9–11 July on the first stage of the mission. The Zambian authorities have confirmed that a visit this week is convenient. The Zimbabwean authorities have given a similar indication, but we are still waiting for confirmation. The South African Government have made clear that they are ready to receive me, but have proposed alternative dates. These are now under consideration. I shall therefore proceed with the visit to Lusaka and Harare, leaving from Strasbourg tomorrow evening, and plan to visit South Africa later in the month. Further visits to and within the region are of course not excluded".
My Lords, that concludes the Answer.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Baroness for repeating the Answer to the Private Notice Question as a Statement; and in view of Friday's debate I propose to be very brief. We note that Sir Geoffrey Howe is now proposing to visit Zambia and Zimbabwe. Perhaps the noble Baroness will tell us what the object of this visit is, because when she was opening the debate on Friday she will recall that she made no reference to this possibility at all. Are we right in assuming that there is no clear date for a visit to South Africa at this stage and that what the Foreign Secretary now proposes is a preliminary visit to see Mr. Mugabe and President Kuanda, then to return to this country, and later visit Pretoria? Is that what the Foreign Secretary has in mind?
It seemed clear to us originally that in visiting South Africa the Foreign Secretary was representing not only Her Majesty's Government but also representing the 12 countries of the Community. This, in my view, gave it an even greater importance. Is it the case that he will now visit Zambia and Zimbabwe on behalf of the EC and not merely as the Foreign Secretary of the United Kingdom?
Finally, if the Foreign Secretary finds that he will be unable to visit Pretoria after visiting Zambia and Zimbabwe, will the sanctions agreed at The Hague then come into effect, and will Her Majesty's Government operate them without further ado?

§ Lord Gladwyn
My Lords, we, too, on these Benches are sorry that the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary is not now going to South Africa, though it seems that he may go later in the month. We must surely recognise that if, and when, he goes to South Africa, there is only a very faint chance of his achieving anything by so doing.
If I may, I should like to take this opportunity to ask the Government three questions. They may not be able to reply now, but I should like to ask the questions. First, failing any further move on the part of the South African Government, is it the Government's view that some kind of sanctions become inevitable? If so, would that, in the opinion of the Government, be with the intention of not merely persuading the South African Government, but obliging them to act in the sense desired? If so, do the Government agree that the 21 only sure way of making mandatory sanctions effective would be, as I ventured to suggest in my last speech on this subject in this House, to arrange if possible for these to be imposed by the Security Council of the United Nations?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I should like to thank both the noble Lords, Lord Cledwyn and Lord Gladwyn, for their reception of the Answer to this Question. On the first question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, I can confirm that my right honourable and learned friend the Foreign Secretary will be going as the President of the Council of Ministers on behalf of, and with the full authority of, the Twelve. His mission is an effort to establish conditions in which dialogue can begin, and he hopes to build on the progress that has been made by the Eminent Persons Group. As I said during the course of our debate on Friday, his mission is not a fact-finding mission. He hopes to persuade the key parties to make progress towards the immediate European and Commonwealth objective of a dialogue and the suspension of violence.
So far as a visit to South Africa is concerned, as the original Answer made plain, the dates of such a visit are not yet clear, but the South African Government have agreed that they are prepared to receive my right honourable and learned friend. The intention would be that my right honourable and learned friend would go to Lusaka and Harare between 9th and 1lth July and would go to South Africa at a later date.
On the last question that the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, raised, I think it would be premature to comment on the outcome of the visits to either Lusaka or Harare, or indeed on the visit to South Africa, or to comment on whether or not sanctions would come into play. The hope of my right honourable and learned friend is that we shall be able to make some progress in a dialogue with the South African Government, and I think we must wait to see what is the outcome of these visits before looking at the next stage.
The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, asked me a number of questions. His first question, as I understood it, was that if there were no move by the South African Government, would that mean that sanctions would become inevitable? Again, I say to him that I think it would be a great mistake to speculate on what might be the outcome of these missions until they have taken place. I noted what the noble Lord said about mandatory sanctions being arranged through the Security Council. That is a point that I shall certainly draw to the attention of my right honourable and learned friend.

Lord Home of the Hirsel
My Lords, I must apologise for the fact that, with regret, I could not be present for Friday's debate. However, having read it all, I notice that time and again the valid point was made that if there was to be a settlement of the trouble in South Africa, it must be made in Africa by Africans and for Africans. That is not the only role which the Foreign Secretary can play to help that process along. I am glad that he is visiting Zimbabwe and Zambia, but is it not worth taking a lot of time and great 22 patience to make sure that when he does go to South Africa he has the best chance of helping that process?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I should like to tell my noble friend that we all felt his absence from our debate on Friday. We are very glad to see him in his place today. I have certainly noted what he has had to say. He speaks with enormous experience of foreign affairs and in a very wise sense about a possible settlement. I am sure he is right in what he says about the need for patience and the timescale on this matter.

§ Lord Bottomley
My Lords, it was for good reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Home, was not here on Friday, as I know; but it was an excellent debate, and I can tell him that the Government came out of it better than I expected.
Will the noble Baroness consider suggesting to her right honourable and learned friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary that while he is in Southern Africa he considers going from Zambia to the British Ambassador's residence in South Africa, thereby enabling liberal minded South Africans and businessmen and probably African nationalist leaders to see him there?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Bottomley, first for his generous remarks about the debate on Friday. All of us who took part in it thought it was an excellent debate, and I have drawn it to the attention of my right honourable and learned friend. I shall also draw to his attention the remarks and the suggestion that the noble Lord has made today. I am sure that when my right honourable and learned friend visits South Africa it will be his hope to see as wide a spectrum of opinion as possible. There are always time constraints on these matters; but I thank the noble Lord for the suggestion he has made.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I was sorry to miss the first part of the Answer repeated by the noble Baroness. We all wish God speed and good luck to the British Foreign Secretary when he goes to see Mr. Kenneth Kaunda and Mr. Mugabe. When will he be leaving, and can we assume that he will still be going as a representative of the EC as well as of Great Britain? Can the noble Baroness confirm what has been heard on the wireless, though it did not seem to be absolutely certain: that one good thing that may have come out of our debate—who knows—is that Mrs. Winnie Mandela has had the restrictions on her movements removed?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the dates that I gave in the original Answer are that my right honourable and learned friend will be visiting Zambia and Zimbabwe from 9th to 11th July; and he will be going in his capacity as President of the Council of Ministers. I am not in a position to confirm the report that the noble Lord has heard about Mrs. Winnie Mandela.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, unlike most noble Lords who took part in the debate on Friday, I did not express good will regarding the Foreign Secretary's visit. Of course I have the utmost feeling of good will 23 for the Foreign Secretary, Sir Geoffrey Howe, personally, but in my view the mission is a delaying tactic and flies right in the face of the findings of the Eminent Persons Group. In its report the Eminent Persons Group made it quite clear that in its six months deliberations it had come to the firm conclusion that the South African Government had no intention whatever of abolishing, or even denting, either apartheid or white supremacy. Further, the group estimated that the delay in the imposition of sanctions was fuelling violence and causing bloodshed. In view of those findings what can be the purpose of the Foreign Secretary's visit to South Africa? Can it in any way be removed from the judgment of the Eminent Persons Group that the delay will increase violence, will increase bloodshed, will increase death?
Secondly, can the noble Baroness tell us whether the Government are quite firm that, whatever the purpose and whatever the consequences of this mission, it will be completed before the Commonwealth summit at the beginning of August and will not be used as an attempt by Her Majesty's Government further to delay the decisions of the Commonwealth summit which is taking place nine months, not six months, after the heads of Government conference at Nassau last October?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I am fully aware of the views of the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, on this matter, as we have frequently discussed them across the Floor of the House both at Question Time and in debates. He will be aware from what I have said to the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, what is the purpose of the mission of my right honourable and learned friend. It is to build on the progress made by the Eminent Persons Group and to make an effort to establish conditions in which dialogue can begin. I am aware of what has been said in the report of the eminent persons; but we believe, and it is our hope, that my right honourable and learned friend will be able to persuade key parties to make concrete progress towards the immediate European and Commonwealth objective of both a dialogue and, equally important, a suspension of violence.
Perhaps I may draw to the noble Lord's attention and that of your Lordships the many measures that have already been taken by the British Government: first, at Luxembourg in 1985 there was a list of restrictive measures against South Africa; and then there were the further measures which were agreed at Nassau in October, 1985.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, will the noble Baroness answer the second part of my question as to whether the British Government can assure the House that the mission will be completed before the Commonwealth summit at the beginning of August and that it will not be used as a further means of delaying decisions at that meeting.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, as I have indicated, the South African Government have made clear that they are ready to receive my right honourable and learned friend. They have proposed alternative dates. These 24 matters are still being looked at. I cannot give the noble Lord a precise indication of the dates, though I should expect, from what has been said, that the visit would be before the meeting of the seven countries of the Commonwealth early in August.

§ Lord Thomas of Swynnerton
My Lords, is my noble friend the Minister able to hazard a speculation as to why it is that so many of our European and other partners seem to entertain such high hopes of the idea of economic sanctions since they have proved so unsuccessful, most notably in the case of the Soviet Union in respect of its invasion of Afghanistan?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I think it is always very dangerous on occasions like this for Ministers to speculate exactly on what lies behind the views that have been taken by other governments. The point which is being made by my noble friend Lord Thomas was one that was made from a number of different parts of the House during our debate on Friday. I think the fact that economic sanctions were not successful in Rhodesia and were not successful (as the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, told us) originally when applied in Abyssinia—and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, quotes the case of Afghanistan—makes one realise that they are not quite as effective as some people would make out they are.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, will the noble Baroness not admit that part of the argument is that many private organisations in many countries that ought to have imposed sanctions on various other countries indulged in what is now being called massive disrespect of the law of their lands by sanctions busting? Do the Government agree with that?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, if the noble Lord is saying that countries have agreed to impose sanctions and have failed to keep that agreement, of course that is not something that one can accept. But it has been shown to be a fact that one of the difficulties about sanctions is not only getting all the countries to agree to impose them, but, even more important, ensuring that they are carried out by the governments and all the other private firms or individuals within those countries. If sanctions are to be effective, there must be no ways of getting round them. This has always been one of the difficulties.