HL Deb 07 July 1986 vol 478 cc3-6

2.40 p.m.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have recently received an Audit Commission report on Britain's council housing stock, and if so, what conclusions does it reach.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have never received an Audit Commission report on Britain's council housing stock per se. However, in March this year the Government received copies of the Audit Commission's report on council house management subtitled Managing the Crisis in Council Housing. The commission concluded that many authorities could achieve substantial benefits for both tenants and ratepayers through the better use and management of their existing housing stock, from better financial controls, and by attracting private sector funds.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply. However, is he aware that on 20th June the very responsible magazine Building published an article which stated that the Audit Commission had recently submitted a confidential report showing that a further £750 million a year was required to be spent in order to repair and renovate council housing stock, in addition to the £ 19 billion called for in its original report to which the noble Lord referred? When will we get some action from the Government in this matter?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Dean, as I said in my original reply, we have not received any such report from the Audit Commission. Although the mazagine Building states that there is one available and it may well arrive, up to this morning we certainly had not received it.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, I hope that the House will forgive me for following so closely upon my noble friend's Question, but the noble Lord indicated that the report from the Audit Commission—which is a most responsible and important body upon which the Government depend for much of their advice in the area of local government—has said that there is a crisis in council house building; indeed that was the subtitle of the report. Do the Government acknowl-edge that there is a serious crisis, as the Opposition has been representing for a very long period of time? If so, what steps are the Government taking to deal with the crisis?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, the report to which I referred, Managing the Crisis in Council Housing, is about the management of the existing position. It suggests ways, such as those that I outlined, in which councils can help themselves within their overall budgets to produce a better and more cost-efficient result.

Lord Mellish

My Lords, even without a report, is the Minister not aware that certainly in inner London in a large number of boroughs the council housing stock is in a deplorable condition? Thousands of houses are empty and squatters have moved in. It is a thorough disgrace, whether it is due to bad management or to lack of funds. Something must be done. The Government cannot just leave it like that.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I accept that housing in Britain today is in a state that none of us would wish, but most of the problems are due to its management. I think that I am right in saying that in the past two years local authorities have spent £2½ billion on repairs and maintenance. As we know, that does not appear to have achieved much of a result. I am led to the conclusion that too many authorities play politics with housing. It is about time that they considered the needs of their tenants.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, in order to give the House an idea of what the Government's response is, can the Minister tell us whether it is correct that the previous Secretary of State for the Environment put in a bid for an extra £1.25 billion for local authority housing, which has been reduced by Mr. Ridley, his successor, by £0.25 billion? Is that the Government's answer, to turn their back on the problem by reducing bids?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, the noble Lord is falling into the trap that is common at this time of the year of speculating on the discussions taking place on detailed planned spending for the following year. All sorts of speculations exist, but no member of the Government can tell the House what the outcome of the discussions will be.

Lord Wallace of Coslany

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the shortage of houses to let in inner London and greater London has led to a phenomenal increase in prices, far above the rate of inflation? Until adequate housing is provided, values in London and the South will be far too high for the average purchaser.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, that is one effect of the shortage. Another factor is that many people come to the South-East to pursue employment and therefore need houses. It is no secret that we are looking at ways to diversify the pattern of the rented sector—indeed, that is already under way—for example, by housing trusts and tenants' co-operatives, and in direct provision by building societies, as we discussed last Thursday in connection with the Building Societies Bill. I accept that much more needs to be done, but I welcome the fact that the Halifax Building Society estimates that, with the provisions in the Bill, it could build 3,000 houses a year for rent in needy areas by 1990.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes

My Lords, can the Minister tell us the amount owing in rent arrears in the London area for council accommodation and whether anything can be done to resolve a situation which is unfair to those tenants who are paying their rent?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, the report makes the valid point that average rents do not cover outgoings. The phasing of any increase in rent levels would need careful consideration, but since at least 50 per cent. of local authority tenants receive some form of housing benefit, more realistic rent levels would not hit the financially disadvantaged. The Government are considering those issues and the public expenditure implications of increases in rent levels.

Lord Diamond

My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that the Audit Commission report refers to "the crisis" and not to the management of housing. First, do the Government accept that description? Secondly, the noble Lord made an extraordinary point, suggesting that a number of local authorities were playing politics instead of repairing houses. I am sure that he did not intend that to be a general smear. Therefore, will he be good enough to write to me with a list of the authorities to which that description applies and also put a list in the Library?

A noble Lord

Withdraw!

Lord Skelmersdale

I shall not withdraw, my Lords. In a supplementary question to a similar Question a couple of weeks ago my noble friend Lady Macleod drew attention to a Southwark councillor who admitted in, I think, the evening paper that there were 2,000 lettable empty houses in Southwark. But I shall of course accede to the noble Lord's request to furnish him with a full list and put a copy in the Library. We have here what is a subjective term in respect of housing. Certainly housing is in a serious state, but I am not sure that I would dignifiy it with the description "crisis".

Lord Mellish

My Lords, if it is any contribution to the debate that we are now having on housing, it is a fact that Southwark has declared that £24 million is owed to it by tenants. What will be done about that by the Government or by Southwark? If the Minister is in the mood, would he like to make a comment about direct labour?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I am sorry—a comment about what?

Lord Mellish

My Lords, direct labour.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, no, I do not think that within the relevance of this Question I can realistically be expected to get on to direct labour, on which, like the noble Lord, I have fairly strong views. If it is true that in Southwark £24 million is owed in back rents, that is an absolute scandal and disgrace.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that he has not properly replied to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, as to whether he has made a general criticism and condemnation of the management of housing by all local authorities? Have there been discussions with the local authority associations on that matter, and, if not, will there be?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I was making a general point, but the general point naturally did not cover all local authorities. Obviously there are good local authorities and bad local authorities.