§ 2.42 p.m.
§ Lord Stanley of AlderleyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government why there are no powers for interest to be paid on overdue accounts by the Ministry of Transport to those who successfully petition against a road improvement; and whether, in order to encourage the ministry to settle their accounts swiftly, they have any plans to alter this.
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, payment of awards for costs to successful objectors are made on a discretionary, not a statutory, basis. Successive administrations have concluded that it would be inappropriate to pay interest, and we have no plans to change this.
§ Lord Stanley of AlderleyMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the House will sympathise with him for having to give such a negative reply? How does he reconcile that reply with the code of practice recently issued by the Department of Employment, which says that private firms should pay interest and should pay their accounts on time? Do I understand my noble friend to say that there is one law for the Government and another for me?
The Earl of CaithnessNo, my Lords. I am afraid that on this occasion my noble friend has got it wrong. I remember, as a surveyor, how difficult it was getting accounts settled by clients. The Department of Employment booklet Payment on Time would do well to remind my noble friend about his payment to his surveyors.
§ Lord NorthfieldMy Lords, is it the case that this payment is six months overdue? If it were the other way round and someone owed the Government money for six months, would not the noble Earl today be making a lot of noise at the Dispatch Box complaining about it? Since we all nowadays have to pay for any delays in settling our income tax—I was recently asked for a payment while my accountant was 876 arguing about it—is that not an idea that should spread to the rest of the Government, in fairness to us all?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, it would be wrong for me to comment on a case of my noble friend without his approval. But with regard to payment, we pay awards for costs where they are justified as soon as practicable.
§ Lord BarnettMy Lords, will the noble Lord say whether his answer means that once the discretionary payment has been agreed by the department there is no delay?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, that is absolutely right. It is the time from the receipt of the claim to getting that justified by the department that takes a little longer than we should like, but we are pursuing this matter.
§ Lord UnderhillWill the noble Earl confirm that there has been this six months' delay? He has not said whether or not that is the position. If it is, does he regard it as inefficient and will something be done about it?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, the normal time for payment of an award of costs is much less than six months. If there is a delay of six months, it probably means that a matter of policy has been at stake and therefore it has taken a little longer to take the appropriate Minister's advice on that point.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, why should not the Government pay interest on money they are withholding on a discretionary grant?
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, what I mean is this. Why, simply because the payment is discretionary, should the Government withhold interest from someone they are keeping waiting for money?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, this has been the practice of all governments since the recommen-dations of the Council on Tribunals in 1964.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, how is the discretionary power exercised? Does the successful petitioner occasionally get his costs? Is there any picture of how often he fails and how often he succeeds, even though he wins in the petition?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, the qualified objectors, who are the ones who have an interest in the land, will get an award for costs if they can substantiate their claim.
§ Lord Williams of ElvelMy Lords, will the noble Earl kindly tell the House what plans his ministry has, in the words of the original Question,
to encourage the ministry to settle their accounts swiftly"?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, there is always an onus on Government to settle any outstanding accounts quickly. Indeed, the fact that the matter can be raised on the Floor of the House on an occasion such as this encourages us to do so.
§ Lord Stanley of AlderleyMy Lords, may I finally ask, as this is an administrative matter, whether it is not possible for the Government to pay costs adminis-tratively? If my noble friend does not want to answer this question now, will he take it away and think about it?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I hope that I have not misunderstood my noble friend. We pay an award for costs—which is the answer to the question he asked me.
§ Lord Stanley of AlderleyMy Lords, I am sorry, but I mean the interest as well as the costs.
The Earl of CaithnessNo, my Lords; I think I have already answered the question as to why we do not pay interest; previous governments have not done so, either.