Armed Forces and Ethnic Minorities (Hansard, 2 July 1986)

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied with the present level of recruitment and promotion of members of ethnic minorities within the armed forces.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, will the Minister accept from me that it would be sensible to have within our armed forces a representation from the ethnic minorities in the country that is broadly in line with the population? Is he aware that there is merit in trying to achieve these proportions, not least to demonstrate that all those who live in this country enjoy the protection of the armed forces, and minorities are entitled to have their numbers reflected proportionately in the ranks?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I think that the best people to join the armed forces are, first of all, those 880 who want to join the armed forces and, secondly, those who are most suited to do so.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, does the noble Lord's reply mean that he will not proceed with the survey of the ethnic composition of the armed forces which he outlined at the Committee stage of the Bill?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I did not use the words which the noble Lord suggests. I said that we were considering the matter, and that remains the position.

§ Lord Forbes
My Lords, would the Minister agree that when it comes to promotion or recruitment it is standards that count, and not colour?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I believe that the tenor of my earlier answers indicated agreement with my noble friend.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, does the Minister not understand the frustration of many people at the inability of the Minister to give any statistics at all? Surely what we need in order to be satisfied on many counts is for the Minister to be able to tell the House and the country what proportion of our armed forces comes from the ethnic minorities. For instance, his right honourable friend the Home Secretary says that he is very worried at the absence of black faces in the police force, and is doing something about it. Ought we not also to have the basic facts in respect of the armed forces so that we can discover whether there are any problems and do something about them?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I really do not think I can add to what I have said already. I do not believe that there is any purpose in dragooning people from one section or another of the community into the armed forces, or in dragooning them out. We want people who want to go into the armed forces and who are best suited to do so.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, that is complacency.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that, when he said that we want the best people for the armed forces, the record of the ethnic minorities in the wars that they have fought with us suggests that people of considerable suitability for the armed forces are to be found among members of the ethnic minorities in this country?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, it is indeed the case that many people from the ethnic minorities, for example the Gurkhas, have made a signal contribution to our armed forces.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, is it not true that this Government are committed to the notion of affirmative action, and could they not give a very good example to other employers in an area which is under their own direct control?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, as I explained on an earlier occasion, we are considering this matter further. I am not in a position to make any announcement today, but an announcement will be made in due course.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, surely the noble Lord is begging the question. It is not a question of whether those who wish to join the armed forces can do so. The noble Lord has entirely missed that part of the question put by my noble friend Lord Graham of Edmonton concerning promotion. Are the Government not getting themselves into a catch-22 situation—indeed, creating a catch-22 situation—in which they say that because there is no problem they do not need to give statistics, and because there are no statistics there is therefore no problem?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I fear that the noble Lord is simply mimicking the words of one of his honourable friends in another place. Those were almost the precise words used by one of his honourable friends yesterday, or perhaps the day before. As I have reminded your Lordships on many occasions, the armed forces are an equal opportunities employer. Entry to the armed forces is open to everyone, and promotion is on merit.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, may I ask the Minister how many Englishmen there are in the Scots Guards?

A Noble Lord
Too many, my Lords!

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, about as many Welshmen as there are in the Welsh Guards.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, who himself is mimicking the answer given by his honourable friend in another place, whether he can say how many black faces there are in the Guards and how many black faces were visible in the Trooping of the Colour ceremony?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I regret to say I did not count them.

§ Lord Mowbray and Stourton
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the noble Viscount the Leader of the House served during the war in the Scots Guards with a full-blown Chinese officer?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, if my noble friend will allow me, I shall reflect upon the implications of that question.

§ Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge
My Lords, I think that we cannot leave it exactly as it is. Everyone is uncomfortable about the position except the noble Lord who is answering, and I wish to make him show a little more interest in the subject; it is a very tricky one. Undoubtedly prejudices exist which should not exist; we all have prejudices. But can he not give some encouragement to the hope that within the next 12 months this House will be informed that a policy of absolute lack of discrimination is being fully carried 882 out in the armed forces from top to bottom? That is what we want.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I said on an earlier occasion that we were considering the possibility of introducing some form of ethnic monitoring in the armed forces and that an announcement would be made in due course. But let me say again that I have no reason to doubt that the position is not exactly as 1 have described it.