§ Lord BeswickMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government by what criteria the Secretary of State for Employment made his assessment as reported on 27th May, that "the country has never had as good a time as it has today."
§ The Secretary of State for Employment (Lord Young of Graffham)My Lords, I have used the same criteria which one of our leading national newspapers used on 29th May, when it said,
What the Employment Secretary said is precisely true. There can be no disputing the unprecedented prosperity of the great majority of the 87 per cent. of people who are in work".That newspaper was the Guardian.
§ Lord BeswickMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer, and am interested to know that he is now hiding behind the Guardian. May I ask him this question? At this stage in our civilisation, when we have so many resources at our disposal if we care to use them, does the noble Lord not think that we ought to be judging progress on the basis of an improvement in the quality of life? On that criterion, would he stand by the statement which he is quoted as making?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamYes, my Lords. I think it is important to bring home to everyone that the take-home pay of a married man with two children has risen in real terms since 1979 by 17 per cent., and for those on half-average earnings it has risen by 15 per cent. That is indeed a measure of the way in which the quality of life can improve. Personal judgment about the quality of life is for the individual.
§ Lord BeswickMy Lords, if the noble Lord is bringing home the facts to the man in the street, may I follow up with this point? At a time when many women are afraid to go out in the evening, at a time when an increasing proportion of our GNP is devoted to sophisticated instruments for the protection of the household, at a time when Her Majesty's Government have brought morale in our great public services, like health and education, to the lowest level I have ever known, at a time when there is so much essential work to be done, and so many people unwillingly idle, can the noble Lord really say that this is improving the quality of life?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, the Question was directed to the quality of life, and in drawing attention to the fact that for the past five years this country has had the greatest growth rate of any country in Europe, which looks like carrying on till next year. I am looking at a time when, year after year, our standard of living is going up. In order to maintain our standard of life, we wanted to have pay increases of 1¼ per cent., but those in manufacturing industry took over 7½ per cent. It is important to put that into perspective. All the other matters to which the noble Lord referred are matters for which there are many different causes, and I think that the Government have only partial responsibility for some of them.
§ Lord Harmar-NichollsMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that anyone who travels to other countries on occasions and then comes back here would not recognise this country, if he listened merely to the description of it given by the noble Lord, Lord Beswick? It bears no relation to the true life and the true reactions of our people at this time.
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, I am aware that it is a great temptation—to which, I am afraid, not only some noble Lords but many others succumb—to paint the life of this country in the blackest possible terms. I am proud of life in this country. I want to see it better. I work towards that aim, as do all Her Majesty's Government. I think there are occasions when we should look at the improvements that we have made, and should not merely look at the distance we still have to travel.
§ Lord BarnettMy Lords, would it not have been more accurate if the noble Lord the Minister had actually complained about the growth in earnings, which are doing so much damage to the real growth prospects of the economy, and the likely effect on unemployment?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, I am glad to say that I am able to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, because I have on many occasions in the past complained about the growth of earnings. But this Question was asked, I suspect, with the motive of showing that in this country things are so bad and we are proceeding so poorly. It is esssential that we put things in perspective. What we should look at and realise is that, our standard of living is going up faster, possibly, than at any time before. That has a rebirth side, and that is the prospect for jobs.
§ Lord BlytonMy Lords, can the Minister say whether, when he said that we have never had it so good, he was referring to the South of England and not to the North-East of England? We have more unemployment in the North-East of England now than we had when the famous Jarrow march against unemployment took place in the 1930s. When he says that we have never had it so good, does he think of the derelict areas that are being created in the North-East of England?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamYes, my Lords. But what I would caution all those sitting opposite about is not to take five words out of a 15-minute interview, and 751 then construct something from that. I will repeat exactly what I have already said in your Lordships' House, which is what I said immediately before those words. I said:
I feel concerned for people who have been out of work for a long time and, more than anything else, I am motivated by a desire to see people back into employment and to see the economy grow and, above all, to have a caring society.I am precisely aware of what is happening in the North-East of this country, and I shall be back there shortly. It is a problem which faces a large part of the industrialised world, and, in particular, all of Europe. It is something on which we all have to work together. It does not help to pick odd snippets out of long interviews.
§ Lord Stewart of FulhamMy Lords, is the astounding prosperity the Minister mentions the reason the Government have reached such an exceptional peak of popularity at the present time?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, I am not sure what the noble Lord refers to. There is in my book only one test of popularity. That may well take place within the next two years, and I for one shall wait calmly for the outcome.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the newspaper from which he quoted says today that the British National Health Service is at its most poverty stricken since its inception? However, there is a way in which the noble Lord is absolutely correct. Those who have made money out of the National Health Service through the Griffiths Report, those who have made money from the selling off of great British assets, the nationalisation of which was absolutely approved of in the election of 1945 by British ex-servicemen, have never had it so good. What those who have never had it so good have forfeited is their patriotism.
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, I must confess that just as the Guardian does not invariably approve of everything I say, I cannot invariably approve of everything the Guardian says.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, the noble Lord should tell us now about British patriotism.
§ Lord KinnairdMy Lords, the remark from the Benches opposite encourages me still further to say what I had intended to say. Can the noble Lord please inform me, because I am becoming a little confused: are we in the House of Lords or in another place.
§ Lord GlenamaraMy Lords, has the noble Lord excluded the 3¼ million unemployed from his famous comment? Has he forgotten that the unemployed have rather more than one dependant on average, so that 7 million people are living at a subsistence level? How can he talk such nonsense in those circumstances.
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, I am aware of a great deal of nonsense that is spoken from time to time, in particular about the number of people who 752 live at subsistence level or do not, and the number of people who are in employment who have dependants or do not. What I would ask all in your Lordships' House to do is to accept and realise that unemployment is an evil; that unemployment is not a steady state for 3¼million people; that one out of four who become unemployed are back in work within a month; that half the people becoming unemployed are back in work within three months; that two-thirds are back in work within six months. Two out of 10 are still looking for work after a year.
This Government have embarked on a programme unprecedented in the industrial world, in which they are going to reach out to each and every long-term unemployed person, get them back to work, help to get them back to work, help to bring them training and help to tell them that they have not been forgotten by this Government.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I am sure I am speaking for the whole House when I say that we welcome the return of my noble friend Lord Beswick to Question Time. The noble Lord the Minister has said that he is proud of the state of our country' at the moment. Is he aware that if he leaves aside the 3 million to 4 million unemployed, in addition to those there are between 6 million and 7 million people who are living on low pay in poverty? Is he proud of that, too?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, I at least am proud of my nation, but in saying so I do not mean to say that the nation is as good as it possibly could be. That is why I and my colleagues in government are working towards an improvement. I question very much the basis of the noble Lord's figures. Like all these figures, they are based upon the simple proposition that half the nation is below average and half the nation is above average, and if you keep on moving the average or moving the level you will always vary the number of people.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, those figures are from the Manpower Services Commission.
§ Lord BeswickMy Lords, the noble Lord attempted to explain the motivation behind this Question. May I put to him that it was simply a reaction against—
§ Lord BeswickMy Lords, I am asking a question. May I put to the noble Lord that the Question was a reaction against a temptation to use selected percentages and statistics instead of what is happening to the people as a whole? The noble Lord said there were many causes of the matters to which I called attention. Is it not a fact that one of the basic causes of our present social degeneration is the Government's upholding individual selfishness as a form of enterprise? Is it not a fact that we are now engaged in a form of economic permissiveness which cannot possibly improve the quality of life?
§ Lord Young of GraffhamMy Lords, the noble Lord perhaps criticises me for selective statistics. Is that any different from a selective quotation, taking five or six 753 words out of an interview lasting 15 minutes—something which has happened before now? It is no good equating selfishness with incentive, the desire to stand on your own feet, the desire to look after yourself. What we must have is a society in which people look after themselves and look after the less fortunate. What we must not have is a society in which Big Brother thinks he can look after all of us.