HL Deb 30 January 1986 vol 470 cc797-9

3.37 p.m.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, I am sure the House will allow me to refer to a grave development; namely, the very sharp rise in unemployment announced by the Department of Employment today. There are, of course, complicated figures, but the short point is that the unadjusted figures show that there are 135,000 more unemployed than there were a month ago. The position now is that there are over 3.4 million unemployed—

Noble Lords

Order!

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, the responsible Minister is the Secretary of State for Employment, who is a Member of this House, and I think the House would wish to know whether he proposes to make a Statement on this new and serious development.

Lord Denham

My Lords, so far as I have been able to find out, it has never been the practice in either House for an oral Statement to be made on the occasion of the publication of the monthly unemployment figures.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, the other place is, of course, different from this House and there are all sorts of opportunities there, by means of points of order, by means of Questions to the Prime Minister, by means of questions on next week's business and by means of Standing Order No. 10, to raise the issue. In this House no such opportunities are available. Nevertheless, the Secretary of State is the boss of the department concerned and he sits in this House. Bearing in mind that the figures are the worst on record, represent 14.1 per cent. of the population as unemployed and show a crisis in unemployment, we believe—

Noble Lords

Order!

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, may I just finish this point? I hope that the noble Lord—

Lord Denham

My Lords, of course we will always be prepared to discuss anything that may be suggested like this through the usual channels. I may say to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, that one of the ways that are not open to discuss this matter in this House this afternoon is the way that he has just tried.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, is the noble Lord the Chief Whip suggesting that, because there is no precedent, the publication of figures showing a record number of unemployed in this country should not be the subject of a Statement? If he is saying that, and that there are no means for making such a Statement in this House, is that not further proof that the Secretary of State for Employment should be not in this House but in another place where he can be questioned?

Lord Denham

No, my Lords. That is not at all what I have been saying. I think that many Members of this House are very glad of the fact that my noble friend the Secretary of State sits in this House. This is the sort of thing we can discuss through the usual channels. Whether or not it would be right for a Statement to be made on the occasion of the monthly publication of figures is one thing. To try to discuss those figures merely on the suggestion that such a thing should be done is, I think, out of order.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, can my noble friend say whether before this matter was raised by the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition any request was made for a Private Notice Question?

Lord Denham

No, my Lords; but I think that would be a little difficult because, in fairness to the noble Lord opposite, the figures were only published at 12 o'clock. That would make it difficult to ask for a Private Notice Question. I also must say that the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, was kind enough to arrange for notice to be given that he was going to raise this matter. Whether it is a good thing to have a statement made on the publication of the employment figures in either House, wherever the Minister concerned may be, whichever Government might be in office at the time, and whether the figures go up or down, is something which I think we should discuss through the usual channels.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, the availability of opportunity to raise this matter in the House has been discussed by my noble friend Lord Stoddart. But may I say that I am grateful to the noble Lord for what he has said about the possibility of discussion on this matter through the usual channels and possibly in the Procedure Committee as well?

Baroness Seear

My Lords, I do not want to prolong the discussion but this is I think a record figure. I should like to urge as a matter of urgency that we discuss through the usual channels how we might deal with it.

Lord Denham

My Lords, I think the noble Baroness will agree that I have already said that we can discuss it through the usual channels. What I think we would be totally out of order in doing, in regard to whether this matter should be discussed, is actually to discuss it now.

Lord Broxbourne

My Lords, in regard to the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, as to the procedure in the other place and his suggestion that that puts this House at a disadvantage, does my noble friend appreciate that the first three of the four possible methods canvassed by the noble Lord seem on the face of it to be inappropriate, and the fourth could be applied only by leave of Mr. Speaker, and that only very sparingly and on rare occasions?

Lord Denham

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for filling in with information that I myself had not the knowledge to supply.