"The Londoner" (Hansard, 12 February 1986)

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Elton)
My Lords, not so far as I am aware.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is it possible to invite the attention of this functionary to his duties in respect of restraining from the use of ratepayers' money for straight (if that be the correct adjective) party political propaganda?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I shall be very happy to draw my noble friend's remarks to his attention.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, does the Minister agree that this is an extraordinary situation: the cost of this publication, the £100 million or so which they have now discovered in the kitty, and a High Court injunction in the matter of how it is proposed to be spent? Would it not have been better for the rulers of the GLC to have exhibited some form of common sense, in that they could, for example, have set up a fund on which all the old people of London (who have contributed to this sum of money anyway) could have made a claim to ease the terrible expense of keeping warm in this appalling weather? Instead, we have a daft crowd which is behaving in this monstrous way, distributing a paper that most of us do not like anyway, putting themselves in the situation of having £100 million and ending up in court.

Noble Lords
Hear, hear!

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, at the risk of going beyond the scope of the Question that I am supposed to answer, I must say that I have a lot of sympathy with what the noble noble Lord has said. The proper way to deal with this money, of course, is to return it to the London boroughs, who represent the people from whom it came, for their decision.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the District Auditor does not feel that he can take action in these cases until the accounts for the previous years are submitted to him and he has examined them? This means that the money has been 188 spent uselessly on the very political purposes of the extreme Left-wing. Is this the way to redistribute ratepayers' money, in this ill-considered and uneconomical manner?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, my noble friend will know that this publication has been in existence for some time and that in fact earlier issues have been rather more extreme than the one which is before your Lordships at the moment. My noble friend will also know that we are seeking powers to curtail that sort of behaviour in a Bill which is at present going through this House.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, the Question deals with the current issue. Is the noble Lord the Minister satisfied that all those who said "Hear, hear" in reply to a recent supplementary question have read this publication? Is he aware that on the occasion of the Second Reading of the Local Government Bill the position of the Opposition was made absolutely clear; that it is opposed to the use of ratepayers' money for party political propaganda? Is it not also an important fact that dissemination of information about services which will be available after the abolition of the GLC is of vital importance? That is what this journal does, and should not the GLC be congratulated rather than denigrated?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I cannot answer for the reading habits of my noble friends, nor for the distribution system of the GLC. I am glad that the noble Lord supports our view that money should not be spent on promoting the party political prospects of individual parties in this country. I find myself on the margins of doubt when he says that the only object of the issue in question is to tell everybody where to look for services in the future. That is something which I would want to test very carefully against the text.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that they have not sent me one? Can I sue?

§ Lord Elton
I think, my Lords, that they have plenty of cases to contend with at the moment though I expect that the noble Lord will be sent a complimentary copy almost immediately from this inexhaustible source.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there has been a great deal of wind generated by this matter? In point of fact, in the London borough of Bexley, which was under Conservative control until very recently, we receive a similar publication. If such a publication comes from a Conservative-controlled body, it is apparently not party political propaganda: but if it comes from a GLC governed by Labour, it appears that it is party political propaganda. Is it not time that people sorted themselves out and distinguished between what is information and what is propaganda?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I do not agree that a lot of wind has been generated. We are addressing an important issue, which is whether the money which has been taken from citizens who belong to all parties should be used to promote the fortunes of one party to 189 which most of them do not belong and a great many are opposed. As to the nature of these publications, they are the subject of a Bill which we shall be debating on Tuesday. I shall take the opportunity then, as I take it now, to say that the distinction has nothing whatever to do with the party of origin of the material; what matters is the intention of the material and whether it is specifically linked to political aims, as certainly were earlier copies of this publication.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, despite the valiant whitewashing efforts of the noble Lord on the Front Bench opposite, this particular issue—although I agree with my noble friend that it is not as bad as some previous ones—is devoted to criticising the decision of Parliament and Government to abolish the GLC?

Noble Lords
What is wrong with that?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord opposite would wish to answer that question if he was able to. I think, however, that the opportunity to apply another coat of whitewash must be delayed.