HL Deb 04 February 1986 vol 470 cc1109-11

9.50 p.m.

The Lord Bishop of Rochester rose to move, That this House do direct that, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act 1919, the Ecclesiastical Fees Measure be presented to Her Majesty the Queen for Royal Assent.

The right reverend Prelate said: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion which stands in my name on the Order Paper and which may take me about a minute longer than the one I have just moved. This Measure makes new provision for ecclesiastical fees and replaces the Measure that was passed nearly a quarter of a century ago, in 1962. As under the previous Measure, the various fees will continue to be specified by order, but this new Measure introduces certain changes to simplify the procedure in General Synod for making such orders.

This new Measure stems from a report of the Parochial Fees Commission received by the General Synod in November 1979. The changes of procedure it proposes provide for wider consultation in the preparation of orders prescribing fees payable for legal officers. It provides for the right of members to amend some draft orders—a right which they do not at present enjoy—and at the same time it provides for the saving of time at meetings of General Synod where there is general agreement to do so. The Measure provides for the making of three different types of order. First, there are Parochial Fees Orders. These relate to the fees charged in parishes for marriages and funerals. Secondly, there are the Legal Officers (Annual Fees) Orders. These deal with the annual retainers paid to registrars. Thirdly, there are the Ecclesiastical Judges and Legal Officers (Fees) Orders which relate to the fees charged by the ecclesiastical courts.

The Measure replaces the existing Fees Committee, which consists of only three lawyers, with a new Fees Advisory Commission which will include, in addition to three lawyers, representatives of the Church Commissioners, the Central Board of Finance of the Church of England and the Standing Committee of General Synod. This increased membership will more fully reflect the role of the bodies with financial obligations towards the remuneration of legal officers. Parochial Fees Orders will, as at present, continue to be prepared by the Church Commissioners.

The changes in the procedures of General Synod are modest but time-saving. The obligation for every draft order to be debated is removed but members of Synod retain the right to discuss an order if they wish and indeed may give notice of their wish not only to debate but also to amend an order. Such an amendment will require the support of 25 other members of Synod before it can be debated but, as I have said already, this right to move an amendment is new. A similar right to ask for a debate on a Legal Officers (Annual Fees) Order is provided, although as at present there will be no right to amend an order.

This fees Measure first came before the Ecclesiastical Committee of Parliament in May 1985, and was subsequently amended by the Synod to ensure that all fees orders are subject to parliamentary control. The present Measure has since been found expedient by the Ecclesiastical Committee, following a vote in General Synod when it was passed in all three Houses by a total of 192 votes to 10. Accordingly, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act 1919, I beg to move that the Ecclesiastical Fees Measure be presented to Her Majesty for Royal Assent.

Moved, That this House do direct that, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act 1919, the Ecclesiastical Fees Measure be presented to Her Majesty the Queen for Royal Assent.—(The Lord Bishop of Rochester.)

Lord Williams of Elvel

My Lords, may I ask the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Rochester a question on Part III of the Ecclesiastical Fees Measure, Clause 8? It reads: Where an archbishop or bishop has paid any sum by virtue of any order made or deemed to be made under this Measure and the liability to pay that sum was imposed on him as archbishop or bishop, the Church Commissioners shall reimburse that sum to the archbishop or bishop". I am quite certain that General Synod has given due consideration to this clause, but perhaps the right reverend Prelate could say a little more about what the obligations of an archbishop or a bishop might be, and how that clause could be discharged without prejudice to the public purse.

The Lord Bishop of Rochester

My Lords, I think this refers to the fact that all the legal fees payable by a bishop for all kinds of services provided by the legal officers, such as the installation of first dignitaries and so on, are not paid by the bishop personally but by the Church Commissioners on his behalf. The clause on which the noble Lord has picked merely puts that on the record so that any fees that the archbishop or bishop has been required to pay are reimbursed to him by the Church Commissioners in the perfectly normal way.

On Question, Motion agreed to.