Coinage System (Hansard, 4 February 1986)

§ Lord Ezra
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the structure of the coinage is kept under constant review. Nottingham University have been commissioned by the Royal Mint to look at various changes to our coinage system.

§ Lord Ezra
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. May I ask him whether he agrees that the present coinage is much less satisfactory than the coinage which it replaced, and that there is serious risk of confusion between a number of the coins currently in use? Would he not therefore consider it to be in the public interest for a more logical sizing difference between the coins to be introduced progressively?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, far be it from me to say that the coinage is entirely satisfactory at the moment. I quite agree with the noble Lord that it is probably not. But, as I have said, there is research going on at the moment into possible changes. Various options—including, I may say, no change—are under consideration and especially involving the possible replacement of the 5p and 10p pieces. I must tell noble Lords that research is at an early stage and is so far inconclusive.

§ Lord Barnett
My Lords—

§ Lord Broxbourne
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his characteristic courtesy. Does not my noble friend the Minister consider that, with the increasing old age and short sight in the community, much confusion could be avoided and time economised by the introduction of a reform of the coinage suggested, with his characteristic public spirit, by the noble Lord opposite? This is particularly in relation to those tiresome small coins, the £1 piece, the 20p piece and the 5p piece, which cause great difficulty to those afflicted with one or other or, a fortiori, both the aforesaid disabilities?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I should like to say first that this research which is being undertaken by Nottingham University particularly includes the blind, the partially sighted and the handicapped when they are considering this problem. So far as concerns the £1 coin and the 20p coin, I think that the 20p coin has on the whole been extremely popular in its introduction. As regards the £1 coin—I know that we 1004 have been over this ground on many occasions—personally I think that it is quite popular, and, as I have already said, the 5p coin is under review at the moment.

§ Lord Barnett
My Lords, as the noble Lord the Minister is prepared to express a personal opinion about one coin which may not be universally accepted, or even accepted by the research body that has been set up, will he accept that whatever is done about the coins, something needs to be done about the notes? For example, will he agree that £5 is far too high a level for a starting point for notes?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
No, my Lords, I would not accept that. I think that the difference between the £1 coin and the £5 note, apart from the fact that it is fairly commonplace in other countries in the world, is a reasonable difference. There is, I suppose, a possibility that at some stage a £2 coin may be looked into; but at the moment I would not give any further encouragement than that.

§ Lord O'Brien of Lothbury
My Lords, will the noble Lord the Minister recall that in a debate in your Lordships' House in 1984 on the impending demise of the £1 Bank of England note, I urged the Government to rationalise the job lot of coins that we have as our coinage, and I invited them to take as their model the admirable Swiss coinage for doing this? If a study is taking place at Nottingham University, will the Minister be pleased to draw the attention of that university to the Swiss coinage, which has a lot to commend it?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I certainly hope that those involved in this research will take note of what is said in your Lordships' House this afternoon. I have to tell the noble Lord, Lord O'Brien—and I recall the debate very well—that the cost of completely revising the coinage would be something in the order of £250 million to the Mint alone, and that would not take into account the cost to other people such as banks, vending machine operators and the general public. In addition, it would be quite a major step for people in the community to accept, and particularly, if I may say so, the type of people to whom my noble friend Lord Broxbourne referred.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the researchers will have their attention drawn to the satisfaction in Scotland at the continued use of the £1 note, which causes English people to take their money to Scotland, change it into notes and then come back?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I know that the Scots are very keen on their £1 notes. They are legal tender in Scotland and are widely accepted in England as well. I hope that the Scots may be quite happy with the £1 coin which they had issued the year before last.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, can the noble Lord tell the House what precisely is meant by "research"? He is aware that there has been considerable concern over the past few years about the new coinage introduced by the Government. Can he 1005 say whether the research takes account of consumers' views throughout the country? The House will be grateful if he can explain a little more about that.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I understand that the research mainly consists of human performance tests with members of the public, particularly including the blind, the partially sighted and the handicapped. Of course views of the public are noted as well because the research may result in some sort of conclusion, but it would be up to my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to decide at the end of the day what changes might or might not be needed. Therefore we would of course take into account the views of members of the public.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, in view of the criticisms from this House, will the noble Lord arrange for human performance tests to take place here?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am not quite sure how I should answer that. If the noble Lord would like me to arrange for a free handout of the different coins, I am not sure that I could arrange that.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, has the noble Lord ever read a history of our coinage? I am sure he has. In that case, can he confirm that it is a long, dreary history of hopeful pledges, wishful thinking and counsels of perfection invariably overtaken by events, leading from one mess to another?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am quite sure that the noble Earl is better informed on this matter than I am. I have to say, as I have said to the noble Lord, Lord O'Brien, that a complete change would be very impractical and therefore we must try to make gradual changes as and when they prove necessary.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, with regard to the terms of reference of the Nottingham research team, has it been asked to look at variations in the shape of coins? Those of us who fumble blindly in the dark to look for coins at night would be greatly helped if we could recognise a diamond as against an octagon, and as a consequence we would know what the coin was.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I know there are various possibilities regarding the shape of coins. The Royal Mint coin collectors' club magazine last year published an article about possible changes to the coins which included, for instance, a 5p piece shaped rather like the old threepenny bit used to be. That is one option, and I understand that they are looking into that kind of change.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, will the Minister, bear in mind that certain of our coins of different values are somewhat similar in diameter? Will he have a look at the French system whereby certain of their coins, as I seem to remember from the First World War, have a hole in the middle? That enables anybody, whether they are blind, deaf or just stupid, to differentiate between a coin of one value and a coin of another.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I understand that the possibility of a hole in the middle of a coin has 1006 been thought about. On the other hand, I do not know what the French have on the other side of their coins. My own opinion is that our Monarch might not be too pleased at having a hole through the middle of her head.

The Earl of Selkirk
My Lords, will the noble Lord consider letting the House have a picture of the design before coins go into production? Does he realise that colour is no use and thickness is no use? What is wanted is shape.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as I already mentioned to the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, there was an article in the magazine of the Royal Mint coin collectors' club which gave various options that might or might not be suggested for a change. I do not agree with my noble friend that colour and shape are of no use whatsoever. I think that in a coinage such as ours you do have to have different colours and you probably have to have different shapes as well.