Sadler's Wells Theatre: Financial Assistance (Hansard, 3 February 1986)

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, this is a matter for the theatre itself and for the Arts Council, which has been asked to replace the GLC funding of Sadler's Wells. The Arts Council is considering ways in which Sadler's Wells can be helped, but it would be contrary to its declared policy for it to fund a building as distinct from a performing company. Negotiations are continuing.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, I thank the Minister but I am disappointed in that reply. Is the Minister aware that in 1984 the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, and as late as September 1985 the right honourable Minister in another place, reassured Sadler's Wells by saying that the GLC allocation to it had been taken into account when giving the extra money to the Arts Council? Are we now to understand that those ministerial reassurances are meaningless, because that is what the noble Lord is saying?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, my right honourable friend and his predecessor both considered the implications of abolition of the funding of Sadler's Wells and indeed of the other receiving theatres. The £25 million which has been allocated to the Arts 891 Council specifically for post-abolition funding has taken account of this.

§ Lord Nugent of Guildford
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that Sadler's Wells is a theatre of historic and national importance and that the opera and ballet which it has been responsible for originating has made an outstanding contribution to our national life? While I am normally in sympathy with government policy to leave the Arts Council to make its own judgment about the distribution of its very large funds provided by the Government, I should like to ask my noble friend whether he is aware that the Arts Council can sometimes be quite capricious about its grants, and that in this case it is really vital that adequate funds should be provided to keep this theatre going? Will he therefore reconsider his Answer and consider giving the Arts Council some firm advice about a substantial grant to Sadler's Wells?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, my right honourable friend has a great admiration for Sadler's Wells. It does indeed play a vital part in the cultural life of London and the nation and naturally my right honourable friend is concerned about the future of the theatre. However, it is essentially a matter for the Arts Council to work out the possibilities and it is in consultation with Sadler's Wells and other interested parties. My right honourable friend is keeping in close touch with developments and has every confidence in the Arts Council's desire and ability to achieve a satisfactory outcome.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
But, my Lords, has the Minister not been told that the Arts Council has written to the governors of Sadler's Wells saying that it has no intention in future of funding what it calls a receiving house—an extraordinary phrase to use in respect of such a theatre? It appears, therefore, not only to have failed to shoulder the responsibility which the Government placed upon it, but to have changed its policy so as to remove not only the substitution of the GLC grant but its own grant as well. The Sadler's Wells Theatre is therefore in the frightful position that it will have to close down on 17th May unless something is done. Will the noble Lord ask his right honourable friend to look urgently into this question to see whether funding can, in the circumstances, be taken upon the budget of his own department, and if the Arts Council is unwilling to act as a conduit in the matter to find some other means of making sure that this historic and valuable theatre does not have to close down?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, of course in asking that question the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, is referring, in essence, not only to Sadler's Wells but also to the other receiving theatres which are to be found on Merseyside and in the North-east. It is for the Arts Council to determine the allocation of its grant and it is its policy to fund bodies and not buildings. But useful and constructive discussions are going on between the council, successor authorities and other bodies with a view to securing the future of all the buildings I have mentioned outside Greater London. I believe that it is going to be possible to find a solution within Greater London.

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords, although it is for the Arts Council to do what it can with its grant, as the noble Lord said, is it not for the Government to see that it has an adequate grant? Is the noble Lord aware that there is a shortfall of some £10 million between what the Government are giving now and what the GLC gave before?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, there really is no shortfall. As the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, said, the Government are indeed making £25 million available to the Arts Council for post-abolition funding next year. It is reasonable that the rest of the GLC and metropolitan counties' spending should be taken up by successor authorities, which after all are going to be relieved of substantial precepts in regard to arts giving.

§ Lord Shackleton
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his remarks imply that the Government are prepared to contemplate the closure of Sadler's Wells? Does he not agree that the closure of a theatre which has given us the Royal Ballet and so many other activities would be a national disgrace and that this could not happen in any other European country that believes in support for the arts?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, if Sadler's Wells was to close, no one would regret it more than the Government.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, can the Minister explain something which I do not understand; or have I got it wrong? Is it not correct that Sadler's Wells makes a return to the Government which is greater than the grant it is given? If that is the case, does it not seem absolutely stupid to refuse to give it that opportunity?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I am afraid that I am not furnished with the answer to the noble Baroness's question. In other words, I am not aware that what the noble Baroness says is the case. What I am aware of is that we are talking about grant-aid which must fall to the Arts Council. The Government have made a very major allocation to the Arts Council for post-abolition funding. The Arts Council, as I have told the House, is now in negotiations on this matter and I think we ought to see how those negotiations proceed.

§ Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that to say that there is no reduction is a quite uninformative statement? We have been told and promised that the changeover from the GLC will not produce a reduction, yet here it is producing a reduction of a major national asset. Is the noble Lord aware that, quite apart from having been the foundation of the ballet which is one of the glories of our artistic work here, Sadler's Wells was going hard in the time of Garrick and long before that? It is a national asset. Will the noble Lord agree that it is no good just saying everything is all right when it perfectly clearly is disastrous?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I believe there is not a shortfall, and I have explained the reason for that. I also do not believe, on behalf of the Government, that 893 it is not possible to find within Greater London for the Sadler's Wells Theatre a solution to a problem which is being faced outside London—in the North-east and on Merseyside—with results being achieved.

§ Lord Ritchie of Dundee
My Lords, may I just draw the noble Lord's attention to the fact that the Sadler's Wells Theatre cannot be described as exclusively a receiving theatre since it acts as an entrepreneur for foreign dance and drama companies? Is the noble Lord aware that several of them are arriving this year, including the Chinese Ballet, which is due to arrive at the time that Her Majesty the Queen is going to visit China in the autumn; and that it would be a national disgrace if there were no theatre for it to come to?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, if I may say so to the noble Lord, it is far too early to talk about the cancellation of the Chinese Ballet visit. As I have said, the Arts Council is looking for a solution which will enable Sadler's Wells to remain open.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, I do not feel that the Minister dealt clearly with my remark about ministerial reassurances. There is no doubt that the Sadler's Wells Theatre Company was clearly told that its needs were taken into account in the grant which had been made. What has happened between that statement and the present day, because suddenly, in November, it was told that it was not getting the money? Are we to understand that these ministerial reassurances do not mean anything?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, may I add to what I said to the noble Baroness at the beginning of this exchange when I replied that the £25 million allocated to the Arts Council specifically for post-abolition funding took account of the assurances? The Arts Council of course has a long-standing policy of not funding receiving theatres, and it announced recently that it planned to adhere to that after abolition. But the Arts Council also made it clear that it was prepared to come to arrangements with successor authorities in the areas affected whereby in determining its support for other arts bodies in such areas the council would take account of the authorities' support for the receiving theatres. That is a matter in which the Arts Council is responsible; but so are other people as well, including the local authorities concerned. I think that with these negotiations it is better now to wait and see how we go.

§ Lord Shackleton
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the abolition of the GLC has removed the one local authority which is capable of supporting what is not just a local theatre but a national theatre?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the noble Lord perhaps will not have noticed that the local London borough council, Islington, has for next year a grant which is £11 million more than it received in the year before. I should have thought that if Islington Borough Council is prepared to have a look at its priorities and use its money sensibly it could play its part in assisting Sadler's Wells Theatre.