Royal Navy: Vessel Design Policy (Hansard, 3 February 1986)

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State for Defence Support (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, vessels for the Royal Navy are designed by industry to meet the Ministry of Defence requirements.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, I had hoped that the Minister would be a little more communicative. Have there not been considerable disputes between the school that believes in the long and thin and the school that believes in the short and fat in design? Is there not a committee about to report? Has it reported? Is there not, indeed, quite a lot being done at the moment as to whether the old-fashioned designs should be retained or whether the modernists should be given a say? Can the Minister tell us something about it?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I understand that the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Hill-Norton, intends to present a report on this subject before long; but the Government are not in any way connected with that report and certainly have not seen it.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, if the ships for the Royal Navy are designed by industry, could the noble Lord tell the House what the Royal Naval architects are doing in Bath?

§ Lord Trefgarne
Yes, my Lords. I had a feeling that I would be asked that question. The answer is that they, of course, set the specification in the first instance, in accordance, as I say, with the requirements of the Royal Navy, and they subsequently scrutinise the designs that are brought forward by industry.

§ Viscount Mersey
My Lords, is it not the case that submarines are now principally sunk by Sea King helicopters and surely all that is needed is a platform from which and on to which these helicopters may take off and land; and, also, a device for detecting the submarines in the first place? Might not the answer be a simple container ship pulling a towed array?

§ Lord Trefgarne
Sadly, my Lords, my noble friend over-simplifies somewhat.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, is it not desirable that the introduction of helicopters on all occasions should be studiously avoided?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I was hoping that my original Answer would do that.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, I rely in part on newspaper reports, but is the Minister not disturbed that the report which is in the course of preparation, and which I understand is to be submitted to the Prime Minister in February, says that the report upon which the short, fat, ship was rejected is deeply flawed and in many critical categories totally inaccurate? In view of the fact that we are talking in terms of £200 million a ship and perhaps 12 ships in all, will the Minister not say something helpful about at least reviewing the policy?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the Government examined the so-called S90 proposal a year or so ago and found that the proposal that was then being mooted had a number of serious shortcomings. Incidentally, the noble Lord is mistaken as to the cost. The cost of the Type 23, for example, which is the sort of vessel for which it was proposed that the S90 should substitute, is of the order of £110 million.

§ Lord Chalfont
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, although he dismissed the supplementary question of his noble friend somewhat cursorily, in fact it contains an important subsidiary question? Is it not true that the use of merchant ships in wartime is an extremely important element of Royal Naval operations? Would it not be possible to include anti-submarine devices on merchant ships converted for the purpose?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I think that my noble friend referred to the towed array and the possibility of towing that with a merchant ship. Unfortunately, I think that that would not be a practical proposition because of the background noise caused by the merchant ship. Indeed, that was one of the problems with the S90, too. As to the question of helicopters, to which my noble friend rightly attaches importance, there was another shortcoming of the S90. There was not room on the deck to accommodate one.