HL Deb 15 December 1986 vol 483 cc6-8

2.50 p.m.

Baroness Stedman

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, is indisposed. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will establish a staff college for the probation service.

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, we have been having exploratory discussions about suggestions for something of this nature. However, these are at a very early stage and no conclusions have yet been reached.

Baroness Stedman

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for that reply. Is he aware that for some years I was a student, a lecturer and eventually a governor of the Fire Service College? I learnt to appreciate the work of that organisation. The prison officers also have their own training establishment. Why is the probation service the only part of the Home Office service that has no training establishment?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I should like to join the noble Baroness in paying tribute to the work done by the Fire Service College and the new Prison Service College at Newbold Revel. The probation service does not have a college of its own. It was rejected after consideration in the late 1970s for a number of reasons. These included cost and insufficiently established need.

Baroness Faithfull

My Lords, will the Minister agree that before setting up such a college one ought to consider the effectiveness of the Central Council for Education and Training in Social Work and secondly, the National Institute for Social Work at Mary Ward House? Cannot these two establishments increase and improve the training of probation officers?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. The Government are always looking to see whether the training of probation officers in this instance can be improved. I am grateful for the suggestions.

Lord Hunt

My Lords, will the Minister accept that, along with many Members of your Lordships' House, from personal experience I am very much in favour of staff colleges for various services? However, will he also bear in mind the proposal put forward in 1977 by the Central Council of Probation and After-care Committees, the then Association of Chief Probation Officers, and NAPO for the establishment of a national centre for probation studies? That may sound a similar organisation but in fact it would be available to all members of the probation service without competitive connotations. It may well be that this is the proposition that he mentioned in one of his replies. We should all be interested to know how that is progressing.

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, indeed it was that matter to which I referred in an earlier answer. I gave the reason why it was not proceeded with. As to our present negotiations, it is too early to say what will emerge.

Lord Harris of Greenwich

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that while many of us welcome the fact that these discussions are taking place we hope very much that they will lead to agreement by the Home Office to establish such an institution. Is he aware, for instance, that the National Association of Senior Probation Officers and many others in the field of probation are firmly in favour of this? Is the noble Earl further aware that at a time when the Government are trying to promote the cause of non-custodial alternatives to imprisonment it is vitally important that the responsible service has a staff college like other Home Office services?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, we are very aware that a number of organisations and individuals have raised this point with us. That is one of the reasons why we are having discussions at the moment. Many more discussions will take place in the future.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, while not wanting to repeat any of the very valid points that have been made, can I ask that the investigation that is taking place into this matter includes the desirability of really worthwhile recruitment? Might not such a staff training college encourage better recruitment into the probation service?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, this is one of the many factors that we are looking at. I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising that matter today.