Home Improvement and Maintenance (Hansard, 23 April 1986)

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, the Government welcome the NEDO report as a useful contribution to the continuing debate on home improvement. I note that the report does not recommend a state fund as such, but that: Government must fund expenditure required by houses owned by householders with inadequate financial resources". This is of course a welcome confirmation of existing Government policy, which seeks to direct help to those who most need it.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that helpful reply. He must be aware that now that owner-occupied houses have reached 62 per cent. of our total housing stock they are one of our greatest assets. There are reports indicating that varying sums of money are required to put houses into good repair. The sums vary from £2,500 to £7,000 per house. As most of those houses are occupied by people who are growing older and do not have the finances to put them in order, will the Government consider some form of assistance—perhaps loans at a cheaper rate of interest than in the market—to stop the deterioration gathering pace?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, the Government have been considering that consistently since 1979. During that period a record sum of nearly £3 billion has been spent on home improvement grants. Spending last year was £450 million and was considerably higher than in the best year of the Labour Government—£130 million in 1974–75.

§ Lord Simon of Glaisdale
My Lords, if it is not too far from the Question, will the Government look again at the old Schedule A income tax? Apart from questions of fiscal equity, was it not a potent incentive to home improvements?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I am afraid that I am too young to have the memory of the operation of Schedule A that the noble and learned Lord obviously has. I shall, however, consider his request, though I think that it is wide of this Question.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, is there not a difference between home improvement grants and the maintenance grants to which the Question refers?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I would say that it is a grey area and that the one slides into the other. I think that both questions are relevant to the Question on the Order Paper.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, if we are to be asked to discuss the NEDO report, would it not be convenient to provide a glossary which would tell us what it means?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, NEDO means National Economic Development Council. I am not sure whether the report is in the Library, but if it is not, I shall make certain that a copy is placed there.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the noble Lord speaks of those most in need. Will he tell the House what the Government estimate to be the number of those most in need? Have they not increased substantially since 1979? When he gives figures for Government expenditure is he giving them in gross or real terms? Is it not the case that that need has increased greatly over the past seven years? Should the Government therefore not be increasing their funding of improvement grants?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, the figures that I gave were in cash terms. I have already made it clear that we are in fact increasing gross provision for improvement grants. I am afraid that I do not have the figures on those in greatest need, but we are to have a debate on that subject on Wednesday week and I shall be delighted to provide them then.

§ Lord Wells-Pestell
My Lords, will the noble Lord the Minister see whether the Government would be prepared to advise local authorities to draw up a list of competent, skilled and reliable builders and repairers in the locality so that when elderly people need things done they can be sure that they will be done properly?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I shall certainly consider that point, but of course local councils provide a short list under the right-to-repair scheme.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, did I hear the noble Lord aright when in answer to me he said that he was giving the figures in cash terms? If so, is that not an attempt to mislead the House? Why does he not give us the figures in real terms?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, because my mathematics are not quick enough.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord the Minister will be gracious enough to allow a question which might be on the edge of the original Question? There is a serious problem affecting about 1 million people throughout the country. They have rented houses from private owners and in desperation to get homes have signed to accept full responsibility for maintaining that rented property, and then they find that they cannot afford to do so. Can that matter be taken on board for consideration?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I shall certainly look at that, but at the moment I have no evidence to suggest that it is a major problem.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, in his answer the noble Lord the Minister referred to improvement grants. I admit that over the years with Government aid—not just from this Government but also from previous Governments—local authorities have assisted in that way, but many people slip through the net because they are not in one of the areas involved. It is most difficult for such people to receive any help.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, the Question is essentially about private house owners, and it is not only centrally funded money which comes into that; it is equally a matter for the local authorities, financial institutions and, of course, the Federation of Housebuilders and Repairers.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, may I assure the Minister that in my first supplementary question I was not trying to place the blame on the present Government? This is a difficult problem which has been accelerating and growing over a number of years under successive governments. The point I am making is that according to figures produced in various reports the problem is accelerating quite quickly. So would it not be prudent for the Government—whether this one or the next—to do something soon to halt this decline?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, we are about to have a modern version of the report on the state of the housing stock, the figures for which will be available in mid-1987. Based on that we will then make our policy absolutely clear.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, has the noble Lord studied the very detailed report of the Audit Commission on this subject? There is surely no need for any extra research in order to get at the extent of this problem.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, by definition the Audit Commission's report was concerned more with money than with the actual state of houses. What we need to know is the actual state of houses.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, is it not absolutely clear that the state of houses is very bad indeed? Also, I must say that I consider the Minister's replies today to show an extreme complacency.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, the most recent report on housing was the AMA one on the state of London housing. I note with interest, though I have been able to glance at it only fairly cursorily so far—it was received at the department only last Monday—that while there has been little change in the level of disrepair since 1979, there has been considerable progress in reducing the number of properties that are either unfit or lack basic amenities.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, has the noble Lord noticed that I am old enough to remember Schedule A? Also, is he aware that the return of Schedule A would not fulfil his purpose, since it is by definition a 1152 tax and is therefore of use only to those who have money which is taxable? Is it not the policy of the Government to confine scarce resources to those who really most need them, and therefore is not something much more specific than that required in this case?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount. Of course, as I said in my original Answer, our policy is to direct help to those who most need it. Equally, by definition—that seems to be a favourite phrase of mine in answering these questions—they are very unlikely to be paying tax.