§ 2.56 p.m.
§ Lord John-MackieMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what their plans are for the Plant Breeding Institute and the National Seed Development Organisation.
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I announced on 18th February in reply to a Question by my noble friend Lord Cranbrook that the Secretary of State for Education and Science and agriculture Ministers had decided to privatise the National Seed Development Organisation and part of the Plant Breeding Institute, provided this can be achieved on satisfactory terms. I also said that we intend to appoint financial advisers. Lazard Brothers & Company Limited have now been commissioned to carry out a preliminary study of the options for privatisation. They have been asked to report in early May.
§ Lord John-MackieMy Lords, is the Minister aware that this proposal was first mooted in the early spring of 1984 and that since then I have asked several Questions of various Ministers but it is only now that some move is being made? Does the Minister realise what the situation is doing to the staff of the PBI, who are a very devoted staff in plant breeding, biotechnology and everything else? It is disgraceful that two government departments cannot get together quicker and settle the issue one way or another, never mind the rights and wrongs of it.
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I recognise that we have been talking about this matter for some time. On the other hand, if we had acted quickly, the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie, would have been quick enough in getting up and questioning whether the Government were acting with undue haste and without consultation. So far as the staff are concerned, I agree that they are the main asssets of the PBI and the NSDO. In fact, the morale of key staff is holding up admirably, and we recognise the importance of retaining them, especially at this time of uncertainty about the future of the two organisations. For that reason we shall be seeking to take decisions as soon as possible, consulting the staff through the respective governing bodies about the form of any privatisation.
§ Lord John-MackieMy Lords, does the noble Earl believe that high morale is reflected by three top people leaving the company?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, individuals are of course free to leave at any time. However, I think that morale is higher now than before we announced that there was to be privatisation.
§ Lord WalstonMy Lords, given the very great contribution that both the PBI and the NSDO have made to agriculture in this country and the high esteem in which they are held in other countries too, and the fact that their financial record is most satisfactory and they bring in considerable sums of money to the Exchequer, will not the noble Earl give us, very briefly, the Government's reasons for even considering the privatisation of these two organisations, if only in part?
§ The Earl of SwintonYes, my Lords. I would agree with the noble Lord, Lord Walston, that the PBI has been successful in producing many valuable varieties and that the NSDO has also performed commendably its role of marketing finished varieties produced by the state institutes. However, there has been some reduction in the level of funding at the PBI and other institutes and it is sensible to look for ways to make this up. It is Government policy to encourage industry funding of R & D, to improve technology transfer from publicly funded research to industry for the benefit of the UK recovery and to consider privatisation where this might foster sound management, commercial efficiency and good value for money for the taxpayers. It is therefore entirely appropriate that the position of the PBI and the NSDO should be reviewed in this way.
§ Baroness NicolMy Lords, will the Minister assure the House that considerations other than commercial ones are being taken into account? That did not seem very clear from his answer. In particular, will he give a categorical assurance that so far as the PBI is concerned the enhanced commercial value of its present site is not a factor in curtailing its operations?
§ The Earl of SwintonYes, my Lords; the whole of the PBI will not be going. I apologise, but I have forgotten the second part of the question.
§ Baroness NicolMy Lords, is the possible enhanced value of the PBI site at the moment a factor in reducing its operations?
§ The Earl of SwintonNo, my Lords, because we hope that the site will remain. We shall not sell off the whole of the PBI. So far as the first part of the question is concerned—namely, whether we shall take into account other factors—the answer is that yes, we certainly shall do so.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that in agricultural circles throughout this country there is profound concern at the Government's policy towards plant breeding institutes generally? I ask the noble Earl to recall the debate which we had in this House on the Welsh plant 417 breeding station at Aberystwyth. Is the noble Earl aware that, as the noble Lord, Lord Walston, said, in this country we have an incomparable reputation in the field of plant breeding and that now it appears from all the evidence we have that the Government are dismantling our plant breeding institutes? In order to clarify the situation will the noble Earl ask his right honourable friend to ensure that a White Paper is published as soon as possible so that we may know the details of Government policy on this important matter?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I think that I can give the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, more than a crumb of comfort, in that so far as the Welsh plant breeding station is concerned no change is planned. I must, however, express some reservation about the idea of a White Paper, though I shall of course draw it to the attention of my right honourable friend.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, I am much obliged, but I must press the noble Earl on that, and I should be grateful if he would convey it to his right honourable friend. Is the noble Earl aware that he has given me no crumb of comfort whatsoever? Is he not aware, as the Minister concerned in this matter in this House, that the Welsh plant breeding station has been deprived of funds; that the expert staff who have been working there for years have been cut down in numbers savagely; and that they have been deprived of their research work on barley and other essential crops? Does the noble Earl not agree that it is an absolute disgrace that the only institute of its kind in Wales has been treated abominably in this way, and that the Government are entirely reponsible for that?
§ The Earl of SwintonNo, my Lords, I would not accept that from the noble Lord. Indeed, I shall never forget the debate we had on that subject, and I very much take the points that he made. But I was trying to tell the noble Lord that it is not going to be sold off. Of course, I shall draw my right honourable friend's attention to what has been said this afternoon and ask whether he will consider publication of a White Paper.
§ Lord KilmarnockMy Lords, is there any reason why the institute should not retain its present status but also run a trading account? Furthermore, if the Government are determined to go down the privatisation road, will they consider a management buy-out?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, so far as the last part of the noble Lord's supplementary is concerned, we shall be considering any suggestion that is put to us. I understand that the NFU, for instance, are interested, and we shall be examining positively any proposals that they put forward.
§ Lord John-MackieMy Lords, arising out of my noble friend's question about Aberystwyth, may I raise the matter of Aberystwyth and potato plant breeding in Scotland? If the NSDO is privatised and goes, what arrangements, in haste or in slowness, are the Government going to have for the marketing of that product?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, they are both questions that we shall be considering.
§ Lord ChalfontMy Lords, would the Minister ensure that there is no confusion when he comes to promulgate plans for the Plant Breeding Institute?—because to many of us in this House "PBI" means "poor bloody infantry".
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, not to me, at any rate.
§ Lord KilmarnockMy Lords, I am sorry to come back to the noble Earl, but could he answer my first supplementary, which was as to whether there was any reason why the institute, as at present constituted, should not run a trading account?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I think we have decided that we shall answer one supplementary at a time. I shall have to write to the noble Lord on that one.