§ 3.28 p.m.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to remove the current restriction which inhibits environmental health officers from investigating the cleanliness of the kitchens of hospitals operated by the National Health Service.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Baroness Trumpington)My Lords, we see the investigations carried out by environmental health officers as extremely important. Our guidance to health authorities makes it quite clear that the environmental health officers should have open access to hospitals and we have no plans to change this. We are looking into ways in which our guidance can be strengthened.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that, though environmental health officers have access to hospitals, as she has said, they have no power to impose higher standards either by prosecution for breach of the law or by threat of prosecution? Does it not strike the noble Baroness as a trifle odd that the environmental health officer for Westminster, for example, can hunt cockroaches in the kitchens of London clubs but is forbidden and unable to prosecute hospitals which have dirty kitchens which endanger the lives and health of their patients?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I recognise the difference which lies between private catering and hospital catering under the Crown immunity. I can only repeat to the noble Lord that local environmental health officers are welcome to visit hospitals at any time. Normally visits are made at yearly intervals; when they find a problem they repeat the visit at two-to three-monthly intervals, but I can go into what happens when they find something wrong, if the noble Lord so wishes.
§ Lord NelsonMy Lords, has not my noble friend merely re-stated the present legal position? Is it not in fact an abuse of Crown privilege that it should prevent prosecution and enforcement of decent standards in National Health Service hospitals?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, it would be wrong at this stage to reach the conclusion that lifting Crown immunity is the only option. This option has not been ruled out. But prosecution would take place after the event, and we are determined that such events simply will not occur.
§ Lord EnnalsMy Lords, that was the situation when I was responsible for the National Health Service, so there are no party politics involved here. Is it not really quite illogical that hospital kitchens should be protected by Crown immunity from responsibility to the courts if standards fall? Does the noble Baroness now accept the report of the environmental health officers that 97 hospital kitchens in Britain would be closed if in fact there were no Crown immunity? Further, is the noble Baroness aware that the National Association of Health Authorities, which after all is the main body concerned, has said that it would welcome the ending of Crown immunity? Is it not time that the Government took a serious look at this matter?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, the noble Lord said that there was no party politics in his question. I too introduce no party politics when I say that he did nothing about lifting Crown immunity.
§ Lord EnnalsMy kitchens were clean, my Lords!
§ Baroness TrumpingtonI am sure, my Lords, that the noble Lord inspected all kitchens at two-monthly intervals.
My right honourable friend the Minister for Health gave an interview on hygiene in hospital kitchens on 23rd September. He said that the report of the environmental health officers would be carefully studied by officials; that it was already departmental policy that environmental health officers should be given open access to NHS premises; and that their reports should be given immediate consideration by senior health authority officers. He also said that he would be looking at whether further action was needed, including the lifting of Crown immunity. I see some noble Lords are smiling. I am glad that my remarks are so humourous.
§ Lord KinnairdMy Lords, does the Minister agree that the rules for hospital kitchens should be even more stringent than those for London clubs?
§ Baroness TrumpingtonNo, my Lords; I think that everybody should be equally hygienic.
§ Lord EnnalsMy Lords, if everyone should be equally hygienic, the standards that apply in the private sector should apply also to hospitals. I do not understand the logic of the Minister's answer.
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I think that I have given all the information that is at my disposal this afternoon.
§ Lord ParryMy Lords, as the noble Baroness seems to be in need of assistance, she may like to know that, as chairman of the British Cleaning Council and president of the British Institute of Cleaning Science, I have received in this House today, entirely unsolicited, a bottle of cockroach killing mixture, and I shall glady hand it to her.
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I hope that the noble Lord has not had a nip out of the bottle. I shall mention one other point that may be of interest to my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter and other noble Lords. We are awaiting the report of the statutory inquiry into the outbreak of food poisoning at Stanley Royd Hospital. When is it received it will be studied carefully and published.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, will my noble friend address herself to this question? If it is necessary for the protection of public health that those who in private catering allow dirty kitchen conditions to arise should be liable to prosecution, why then in hospitals, where, as she admits, the need for cleanliness is at least as great, should a similar sanction not be available if lapses occur? Indeed, as the recent report quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, indicates, they are in fact occurring.
§ Baroness TrumpingtonMy Lords, I think that I have gone as far as I can in answering this Question. As my noble friend knows, at the moment Crown immunity applies to hospitals. It also applies to prisons and a great many other places. If Crown immunity were lifted and a dirty kitchen unfortunately was found, the kitchen would be closed immediately. One has to take that factor into account in considering the lifting of Crown immunity in institutions such as hospitals. As I have said, our main objective is prevention and not cure.
§ Lord AveburyMy Lords, as we are talking of prisons, is the noble Baroness aware that there has been a plague of cockroaches at Parkhurst and that in response to approaches the Minister in charge agreed that cockroach traps should be issued to the prisoners? Will she consider doing the same for patients in NHS hospitals?